Rebel Wing Tips

John Kramer · Post by **John Kramer** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:29 pm

Wayne,

Do they not work as well or are they just too time consuming to fabricate?

John...

At 11:12 PM 12/05/05, you wrote:

Been there..done that as I hate fiberglass with a passion. Bob P has one of
my sets collecting dust somewhere and another set went out on an AULA Rebel.

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "John Kramer" <369R@kramers.org>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2005 12:05 AM
Subject: Re: Rebel Wing Tips

OK, I'm going to demonstrate, once again, how much I don't know.

I've been looking at various Chris Heintz designs all of which use a
Hoerner style tip fabricated of aluminum. The Sonex tip also is a
Hoerner style in metal. In looking at them the design doesn't seem
too difficult for hand tools and Zenith and Sonex plans builders
fabricate them from scratch. Why not sneak a look at a Zenith or
Sonex plan and adapt the metal Hoerner tip to the Murphy wing?

John...

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Wayne G. O'Shea · Post by **Wayne G. O'Shea** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:29 pm

A little time consuming. I cheated and made them right at the wing end...so
lost some wingspan on the presumption that the hoerner design would make the
wing think it was identical to when running the standard MAM tips. I think
it did it's think...Bob just wanted to move up to Fife's tips to get the
extra span.

----- Original Message -----
From: "John Kramer" <369R@kramers.org>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2005 12:25 AM
Subject: Re: Rebel Wing Tips

Wayne,

Do they not work as well or are they just too time consuming to fabricate?

John...

At 11:12 PM 12/05/05, you wrote:
Been there..done that as I hate fiberglass with a passion. Bob P has one

of

my sets collecting dust somewhere and another set went out on an AULA

Rebel.

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "John Kramer" <369R@kramers.org>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2005 12:05 AM
Subject: Re: Rebel Wing Tips

OK, I'm going to demonstrate, once again, how much I don't know.

I've been looking at various Chris Heintz designs all of which use a
Hoerner style tip fabricated of aluminum. The Sonex tip also is a
Hoerner style in metal. In looking at them the design doesn't seem
too difficult for hand tools and Zenith and Sonex plans builders
fabricate them from scratch. Why not sneak a look at a Zenith or
Sonex plan and adapt the metal Hoerner tip to the Murphy wing?

John...

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Drew Dalgleish · Post by **Drew Dalgleish** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:29 pm

At 10:43 AM 12/5/2005 -0900, you wrote:

I'm looking forward to seeing the comparisons when they become available.
Perhaps the best of both worlds might be if Dave were able to eventually

make

longer hoerner tips. HINT HINT :)

That said, I am interested to hear MAM's position on increased wing load.

My

suspicion is that the plane might still calculate to the same design and
ultimate loads simply due to conservative margins in the original, but the
static load tests (and original flight tests for that matter) no longer
apply. One must be careful about design creep, and at some point with
greater wing area, the top of the green arc must also be changed.
-Ben

I think the larger wing span would only be an advantage when on floats so
dropping the green arc down a bit probably wouldn't be much of an issue.
Drew

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bransom · Post by **bransom** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:29 pm

FWIW, I made hoerner look-alike tips on my Kolb ultralight and shortened the
wing span from about 30 feet to 29'4". My previous wing tips were simpleton
flat bottom (as is the rest of the wing) with the top surface coming down to
meet it. I got an unappreciated increase in stall speed (2-3mph), and
probably an increase in cruise and top speed. Bummer. Proves milage may
vary, and whacking out what looks like hoerner tips isn't the same as making
them how they are really suppose to be. Previous posts here indicate Dave
did pretty thorough design work for his.
-Ben

On 12/5/2005 8:25 PM, 369r@kramers.org wrote to rebel-builders:

Wayne,

Do they not work as well or are they just too time consuming to fabricate?

John...

At 11:12 PM 12/05/05, you wrote:
Been there..done that as I hate fiberglass with a passion. Bob P has one of
my sets collecting dust somewhere and another set went out on an AULA

Rebel.

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "John Kramer" <369R@kramers.org>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2005 12:05 AM
Subject: Re: Rebel Wing Tips

OK, I'm going to demonstrate, once again, how much I don't know.

I've been looking at various Chris Heintz designs all of which use a
Hoerner style tip fabricated of aluminum. The Sonex tip also is a
Hoerner style in metal. In looking at them the design doesn't seem
too difficult for hand tools and Zenith and Sonex plans builders
fabricate them from scratch. Why not sneak a look at a Zenith or
Sonex plan and adapt the metal Hoerner tip to the Murphy wing?

John...

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Jeff McMurrer · Post by **Jeff McMurrer** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:29 pm

Jesse,

I've uploaded some more pics of the Droop Tip install on the Rebel. This is all I could find in the midst of the hundreds of photos of the build.

The Droop Tips are MAM approved for the Rebel, as the MAM Rebel demonstrator does have these droop tips installed.

As far as technical questions, such as loading, etc. THOSE QUESTIONS would be better answered by MAM.

Jeff

----- Original Message -----
From: Jesse Jenks <jessejenks@hotmail.com>
Date: Monday, December 5, 2005 8:46 am
Subject: Re: Rebel Wing Tips

Jeff,
I would like to see more pictures. Thank you. Your plane looks
great by the
way. Maybe you could give us some performance numbers to compare
with Rebels
using Fife tips.
I have planned to put the strobe power packs in the wings with
access
through the tip for maintenance or replacement. I might have to
rethink that
if I use the droop tips.
I have done a little google searching on wing tip design, and
there are
definitely differing opinions on what works best. Some sources say
tip
design makes little difference on low speed aircraft. An example
given is
the Mooney. They are supposedly the most efficient light aircraft
(not
including experimentals I'm sure) and they have squared off wing
tips. I
know some of you swear by the Fife tips, but I would bet the
performance
increases are mainly due to a bit more wing area over the standard
MAM tips
so if the MAM droop tips add still more area they could be the
best yet.
On the structural issue, if MAM is producing and selling these
tips for the
Rebel then they must approve their use right?
Jesse

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Jesse Jenks · Post by **Jesse Jenks** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:30 pm

Thanks Jeff,
It looks like quite a bit of work. It looks like you put some inspection
holes out there. Are those just for accessing the flaperon hinge bolts and
attach bolts? Do you have wing strobes, and if so do you have the power pack
out there? I was just getting ready to install nutplates for attaching the
wing tips, whichever ones I use, but I see from your pictures that the droop
tip becomes a semi-permanent part of the wing, so nutplates along the rib
flange won't do any good. Maybe I'll just go with a single fuselage mounted
strobe and forget about it.
Jesse

From: Jeff McMurrer <westcoastkitplanes@shaw.ca>
Reply-To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Rebel Wing Tips
Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2005 00:21:37 -0800

Jesse,

I've uploaded some more pics of the Droop Tip install on the Rebel. This
is all I could find in the midst of the hundreds of photos of the build.

The Droop Tips are MAM approved for the Rebel, as the MAM Rebel
demonstrator does have these droop tips installed.

As far as technical questions, such as loading, etc. THOSE QUESTIONS would
be better answered by MAM.

Jeff

----- Original Message -----
From: Jesse Jenks <jessejenks@hotmail.com>
Date: Monday, December 5, 2005 8:46 am
Subject: Re: Rebel Wing Tips

Jeff,
I would like to see more pictures. Thank you. Your plane looks
great by the
way. Maybe you could give us some performance numbers to compare
with Rebels
using Fife tips.
I have planned to put the strobe power packs in the wings with
access
through the tip for maintenance or replacement. I might have to
rethink that
if I use the droop tips.
I have done a little google searching on wing tip design, and
there are
definitely differing opinions on what works best. Some sources say
tip
design makes little difference on low speed aircraft. An example
given is
the Mooney. They are supposedly the most efficient light aircraft
(not
including experimentals I'm sure) and they have squared off wing
tips. I
know some of you swear by the Fife tips, but I would bet the
performance
increases are mainly due to a bit more wing area over the standard
MAM tips
so if the MAM droop tips add still more area they could be the
best yet.
On the structural issue, if MAM is producing and selling these
tips for the
Rebel then they must approve their use right?
Jesse

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Ken · Post by **Ken** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:30 pm

Jesse
Off topic, but if you install those nutplates now, do you have someway
of aligning and drilling the holes in the tips later? Usually you want
the tips on first, then drill, then nutplates.
Ken

Jesse Jenks wrote:

Thanks Jeff,
It looks like quite a bit of work. It looks like you put some inspection
holes out there. Are those just for accessing the flaperon hinge bolts and
attach bolts? Do you have wing strobes, and if so do you have the power pack
out there? I was just getting ready to install nutplates for attaching the
wing tips, whichever ones I use, but I see from your pictures that the droop
tip becomes a semi-permanent part of the wing, so nutplates along the rib
flange won't do any good. Maybe I'll just go with a single fuselage mounted
strobe and forget about it.
Jesse

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Jeff McMurrer · Post by **Jeff McMurrer** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:30 pm

Jesse,

Putting the Droop Tips on the Rebel took me a bit of time, ONLY because there was no installation instructions at that time. My procedure in putting the Droop Tips on the Rebel may vary from those of MAM. Overall, I believe the extra time was well worth it.

Inspection holes are for putting the hinge bolts in. I have my bolt holding the Tip TE rib secured to the hinge.

We only installed NAV lights on the tips. We put a single strobe on the Rebels top side.

Jeff

----- Original Message -----
From: Jesse Jenks <jessejenks@hotmail.com>
Date: Wednesday, December 7, 2005 5:10 pm
Subject: Re: Rebel Wing Tips

Thanks Jeff,
It looks like quite a bit of work. It looks like you put some
inspection
holes out there. Are those just for accessing the flaperon hinge
bolts and
attach bolts? Do you have wing strobes, and if so do you have the
power pack
out there? I was just getting ready to install nutplates for
attaching the
wing tips, whichever ones I use, but I see from your pictures that
the droop
tip becomes a semi-permanent part of the wing, so nutplates along
the rib
flange won't do any good. Maybe I'll just go with a single
fuselage mounted
strobe and forget about it.
Jesse

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