Solid Rivets

[rickhm]

Rick,

To the degree that it was possible I uses solid rivets everywhere I could. I built the plane by myself (not flying yet) so I had lots of places where it just wasn't practical to buck a rivet by myself like the middle of a wing skin. There are lots of places you can get to with a rivet squeezer like trailing edges of wings, etc. I did lots of pieces where I could lay the piece flat over a large piece of steal and buck them from the reverse side. Something I learned from the RV people. I guess I should note that all of the external surface is flush rivetted. This process was relatively easy. After dimpling, I would insert the rivets and place thin masking tape over the rivet to hold it in place. The pieces I was riveting were clecoed from the back side. I then flipped the piece and bucked from the back side. It worked well, but again I couldn't do it all! I still used LOTS of pulled rivets.

Rick Muller SR70

-------------- Original message --------------

Much discussion recently occurred on this topic but I do not recall if anyone,
of their own accord, decided to build any MAM kit w/solid rivets and then
proceeded to do so.

Rick





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[rickhm]

I asked Darrel at Oshkosh about use of 3/32 bucked rivets versus the pulled rivets. He indicated that the 3/32 were strong enough in sheer, but NOT strong enough in pull away strength due to reduced surface area of the head. FYI

Rick Muller

SR70

-------------- Original message --------------

I have been trying to use solid rivets where possible. I haven't gone to
the length of fabricating special bucking bars or putting in additional
access panels to facilitate bucking although I might do this on the wings.
One of the difficulties in solid riveting an airleron or other small part is
that the skin wraps around instead of both top and bottom meeting at the
trailing edge. You don't want to warp the part as you are riveting it. It
is also really easy to screw up some of the thinner skinned parts,
particularly if you can't get a big bucking bar behind them. The solid
riveting that I have done of the fusilage looks pretty good which I
attribute to the thicker skins and better access.. Solid riveting is much
slower than Avex riveting for a one man operation (particularly if you are
new to solid riveting like me) but I expect to save some time by not having
to fill the holes on a million Avex rivets. Some parts, like doors, do not
lend themselves to solid riveting unless you are willing to go to the length
of drilling through both sides of the tubes and then enlarging the back side
to get something in there to buck the rivets. The alterative is to redesign
the part to accomodate solid rivets. To really make things look good the
parts with thinner skins should probably be riveted with 3/32" rivets at
much tighter spacing to avoid distortion. I'm learning a lot every time I
work on the Moose and I already have two airplanes to fly so it doesn't
matter how long it takes.

Mike

----- Original Message -----
From:
To:
Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2005 5:27 PM
Subject: Solid Rivets

Much discussion recently occurred on this topic but I do not recall if
anyone,
of their own accord, decided to build any MAM kit w/solid rivets and then
proceeded to do so.

Rick





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[Mike Rapoport]

Agreed, you would need to add a lot more 3/32 rivets. Since the skins are
pre punched you would probably need to double the number of rivets. The
problem AFAIK isn't the heads pulling through the skins since rivets are not
loaded in tension. The skin would fail in bearing, allowing the rivest to
cut through the skin. Are you the guy in CDA? I am in Sandpoint.

Mike

----- Original Message -----
From: <rickhm@comcast.net>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2005 8:06 AM
Subject: Re: Solid Rivets

I asked Darrel at Oshkosh about use of 3/32 bucked rivets versus the pulled
rivets. He indicated that the 3/32 were strong enough in sheer, but NOT
strong enough in pull away strength due to reduced surface area of the
head. FYI

Rick Muller

SR70

-------------- Original message --------------

I have been trying to use solid rivets where possible. I haven't gone to
the length of fabricating special bucking bars or putting in additional
access panels to facilitate bucking although I might do this on the
wings.
One of the difficulties in solid riveting an airleron or other small part
is
that the skin wraps around instead of both top and bottom meeting at the
trailing edge. You don't want to warp the part as you are riveting it. It
is also really easy to screw up some of the thinner skinned parts,
particularly if you can't get a big bucking bar behind them. The solid
riveting that I have done of the fusilage looks pretty good which I
attribute to the thicker skins and better access.. Solid riveting is much
slower than Avex riveting for a one man operation (particularly if you
are
new to solid riveting like me) but I expect to save some time by not
having
to fill the holes on a million Avex rivets. Some parts, like doors, do
not
lend themselves to solid riveting unless you are willing to go to the
length
of drilling through both sides of the tubes and then enlarging the back
side
to get something in there to buck the rivets. The alterative is to
redesign
the part to accomodate solid rivets. To really make things look good the
parts with thinner skins should probably be riveted with 3/32" rivets at
much tighter spacing to avoid distortion. I'm learning a lot every time I
work on the Moose and I already have two airplanes to fly so it doesn't
matter how long it takes.

Mike

----- Original Message -----
From:
To:
Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2005 5:27 PM
Subject: Solid Rivets

Much discussion recently occurred on this topic but I do not recall if
anyone,
of their own accord, decided to build any MAM kit w/solid rivets and
then
proceeded to do so.

Rick





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[rickhm]

I am located in Erie Colorado. I assume you are in Sandpoint ID. I grew up in Kalispell MT. Not that far away.

Rick Muller
SR70

-------------- Original message --------------

Agreed, you would need to add a lot more 3/32 rivets. Since the skins are
pre punched you would probably need to double the number of rivets. The
problem AFAIK isn't the heads pulling through the skins since rivets are not
loaded in tension. The skin would fail in bearing, allowing the rivest to
cut through the skin. Are you the guy in CDA? I am in Sandpoint.

Mike

----- Original Message -----
From:
To:
Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2005 8:06 AM
Subject: Re: Solid Rivets

I asked Darrel at Oshkosh about use of 3/32 bucked rivets versus the pulled
rivets. He indicated that the 3/32 were strong enough in sheer, but NOT
strong enough in pull away strength due to reduced surface area of the
head. FYI

Rick Muller

SR70

-------------- Original message --------------

I have been trying to use solid rivets where possible. I haven't gone to
the length of fabricating special bucking bars or putting in additional
access panels to facilitate bucking although I might do this on the
wings.
One of the difficulties in solid riveting an airleron or other small part
is
that the skin wraps around instead of both top and bottom meeting at the
trailing edge. You don't want to warp the part as you are riveting it. It
is also really easy to screw up some of the thinner skinned parts,
particularly if you can't get a big bucking bar behind them. The solid
riveting that I have done of the fusilage looks pretty good which I
attribute to the thicker skins and better access.. Solid riveting is much
slower than Avex riveting for a one man operation (particularly if you
are
new to solid riveting like me) but I expect to save some time by not
having
to fill the holes on a million Avex rivets. Some parts, like doors, do
not
lend themselves to solid riveting unless you are willing to go to the
length
of drilling through both sides of the tubes and then enlarging the back
side
to get something in there to buck the rivets. The alterative is to
redesign
the part to accomodate solid rivets. To really make things look good the
parts with thinner skins should probably be riveted with 3/32" rivets at
much tighter spacing to avoid distortion. I'm learning a lot every time I
work on the Moose and I already have two airplanes to fly so it doesn't
matter how long it takes.

Mike

----- Original Message -----
From:
To:
Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2005 5:27 PM
Subject: Solid Rivets



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[Bob Patterson]

One really important reason to drill the pre-punched holes out to
#30 is: the punching stresses the metal around the hole. This stressed
material MUST be removed by drilling - otherwise, the stress will
cause star cracks to propagate from the holes !!!!!!!

Definitely NOT "A Good Thing"(tm) !!!

......bobp

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Wednesday 30 November 2005 12:18 pm, Mike Rapoport wrote:

Agreed, you would need to add a lot more 3/32 rivets. Since the skins are
pre punched you would probably need to double the number of rivets. The
problem AFAIK isn't the heads pulling through the skins since rivets are

not

loaded in tension. The skin would fail in bearing, allowing the rivest to
cut through the skin. Are you the guy in CDA? I am in Sandpoint.

Mike

----- Original Message -----
From: <rickhm@comcast.net>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2005 8:06 AM
Subject: Re: Solid Rivets

I asked Darrel at Oshkosh about use of 3/32 bucked rivets versus the

pulled

rivets. He indicated that the 3/32 were strong enough in sheer, but NOT
strong enough in pull away strength due to reduced surface area of the
head. FYI

Rick Muller

SR70

-------------- Original message --------------

I have been trying to use solid rivets where possible. I haven't gone

to

the length of fabricating special bucking bars or putting in additional
access panels to facilitate bucking although I might do this on the
wings.
One of the difficulties in solid riveting an airleron or other small

part

is
that the skin wraps around instead of both top and bottom meeting at

the

trailing edge. You don't want to warp the part as you are riveting it.

It

is also really easy to screw up some of the thinner skinned parts,
particularly if you can't get a big bucking bar behind them. The solid
riveting that I have done of the fusilage looks pretty good which I
attribute to the thicker skins and better access.. Solid riveting is

much

slower than Avex riveting for a one man operation (particularly if you
are
new to solid riveting like me) but I expect to save some time by not
having
to fill the holes on a million Avex rivets. Some parts, like doors, do
not
lend themselves to solid riveting unless you are willing to go to the
length
of drilling through both sides of the tubes and then enlarging the back
side
to get something in there to buck the rivets. The alterative is to
redesign
the part to accomodate solid rivets. To really make things look good

the

parts with thinner skins should probably be riveted with 3/32" rivets

at

much tighter spacing to avoid distortion. I'm learning a lot every time

I

work on the Moose and I already have two airplanes to fly so it doesn't
matter how long it takes.

Mike

----- Original Message -----
From:
To:
Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2005 5:27 PM
Subject: Solid Rivets

if

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[bransom]

Before starting on my Rebel I contacted MAM and asked about solid riveting,
indicating I wanted to do the stringers on the wings as much as easy to do.
Reason: Looks, that's all. I also indicated I was particularly interested
in doing this if they could be AN3 rivets (3/32). MAM (Brian Godden at the
time) told me it was completely do-able, within guidelines. They have (or at
least had) a chart and worksheet that you can use to see the proper
substitution of solids for Avex -- it depends on material thicknesses, rivet
diameter, and rivet pitch. (I think this is not a MAM worksheet, perhaps
something from Avdel/Avex.) Anyway, feeling like this was pretty warm
support instead of a reluctant "your on your own", I took this route. It
turns out (from the worksheet) that on the Rebel wing stringers, 3/32 solids
are fine to substitute for the normal plans 1/8" Avex and prepunch hole
spacing. Keep in mind here that Avex rivet pitch is closer than solids would
normally be -- this is how Avex were originally designed, so nothing unusual.

I used solids on leading edge stringers top and bottom, as well as bottom
main skin stringers, but not top main skin stringers just cuz that would
greatly complicate closing the top fuel tank skin, IMO. I used back
riveting as others have suggested here. I made simple little dimpling dies
that allowed me to dimple the wing skin holes without borrowing or buying the
big bench dimpler the RV guys use. With this, and because of back riveting
which is appropriate here, all was single person operation. I would also say
that doing this was a tiny tiny drop in the bucket in terms of overall added
time to my project, and I'm glad to be able to add a personal touch here and
there. Yes, I want to get it done too! Some pics of my dimple dies and
method at: http://mae.ucdavis.edu/ransom/Murphy/SolidFlushRivet . BTW, I
feel no interest in using solids anywhere else; I personally just didn't like
all the span wise bumps (from stringers) showing on the wing.

ANyone want the Avex-solid worksheet, let me know and I'll scan and post.
-Ben



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