Rebel Rudder

[Jesse Jenks]

Brian,
A counter bore is just part of the hole that is a bigger diameter than the
rest. It could be used to get a bolt head or nut to be recessed or flush
with the surface. It is to a bolt what a countersink is to a screw or rivet.
In this case I counter bored for the shop head of the rivet, inside the end
plug.
When you build the elevators just move the offending rivet locations
outboard enough that there is no interference.
Jesse

From: Brian Breathnach <breathnach@shaw.ca>
Reply-To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Rebel Rudder
Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 20:59:58 -0800

Hi Jesse,

Thanks for the feedback.

Im new to this building game so that will explain my curiosity about a
"counter bore." If you wouldnt mind Jesse could you provide a little more
explanation on the concept as a means of keeping me out of trouble when
building the elevators/fin.

Many thanks

Brian

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jesse Jenks" <jessejenks@hotmail.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2005 9:33 AM
Subject: RE: Rebel Rudder

Brian,
I ran into the same problem, and was equally as pi$$ed off about the

manual.

It is the first bit of education you receive that the manual is a piece

of

junk. You will learn that pretty quick.
I hadn't pulled any rivets before I realized the interference problem.

What

I did was to counter bore slightly the inside of the holes for the 2
offending rivets that go through horn and end plug, and used the shorter

SS

rivets in those 2 locations. When pulled, the shop head is almost flush

to

the inner surface of the plug and the opposing rivets from the side will
clear them. As I remember, this problem is caused by the the hole

location

of the two side rivets that are located by the rudder (or elevator)

skin.

With the remaining radialy spaced rivets you can locate them far enough

away

from the end of the plug that there is no clearance problem. On the rest

of

the control surfaces I changed those hole locations slightly. If you

counter

bore the inside of those 2 holes, use a drill press and secure the end

plug

well. The drill bit will grab and want to go all the way through. If you
have an actual counter bore bit, even better.
Jesse

From: Brian Breathnach <breathnach@shaw.ca>
Reply-To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Rebel Rudder
Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 23:08:55 -0800

So, I very very carefully read through the section of the manual on the
Rebel tail feathers as that is where the build was to start.

Then, I very very carefully measured and drilled the rudder parts as

per

the manual and took great care to get the parts all lined up and

fitting

right.

So far so good

Next came the rudder assembly as per the manual. Thus, the rudder

horn

was neatly and properly riveted to the spar cap in a way that would

make

the workmanship of those who built the steel riveted side plates of the
Titanic look like the work of infants building a Meccano set--you know
where this is going right?

Again all went well.

Next came my attempt to rivet the horn and spar cap assembly to the

rudder

spar.

Thats when I discovered that a couple of the rivets used to attach the

the

cap to the spar could not be inserted in place, and pulled, because of
interference from a couple of rivets used to attach the horn to the cap

and

about which the manual offered no caution; indeed it was as silent as a
tomb on the subject.

Thats when I nearly had a ##!!0&%##@/!!!!!! bird

Has this happened to anyone else? if it has I would sure appreciate any

fix

that was dreamed up. But somehow I just know in my bones that it's into

the

hip pocket and out with the wallet to buy a new spar and cap to redo

the

whole 30 hour effort.

Right?

I thought so!

Sympathy, and expressions of shock grief and horror, may be sent to the
undersigned.

Brian Breathnach
779R





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[Brian Breathnach]

Excellent Jessie,
Thanx again
Brian
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jesse Jenks" <jessejenks@hotmail.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 02, 2005 10:07 AM
Subject: Re: Rebel Rudder

Brian,
A counter bore is just part of the hole that is a bigger diameter than the
rest. It could be used to get a bolt head or nut to be recessed or flush
with the surface. It is to a bolt what a countersink is to a screw or

rivet.

In this case I counter bored for the shop head of the rivet, inside the

end

plug.
When you build the elevators just move the offending rivet locations
outboard enough that there is no interference.
Jesse

From: Brian Breathnach <breathnach@shaw.ca>
Reply-To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Rebel Rudder
Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 20:59:58 -0800

Hi Jesse,

Thanks for the feedback.

Im new to this building game so that will explain my curiosity about a
"counter bore." If you wouldnt mind Jesse could you provide a little more
explanation on the concept as a means of keeping me out of trouble when
building the elevators/fin.

Many thanks

Brian

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jesse Jenks" <jessejenks@hotmail.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2005 9:33 AM
Subject: RE: Rebel Rudder

Brian,
I ran into the same problem, and was equally as pi$$ed off about the

manual.

It is the first bit of education you receive that the manual is a

piece

of

junk. You will learn that pretty quick.
I hadn't pulled any rivets before I realized the interference problem.

What

I did was to counter bore slightly the inside of the holes for the 2
offending rivets that go through horn and end plug, and used the

shorter

SS

rivets in those 2 locations. When pulled, the shop head is almost

flush

to

the inner surface of the plug and the opposing rivets from the side

will

clear them. As I remember, this problem is caused by the the hole

location

of the two side rivets that are located by the rudder (or elevator)

skin.

With the remaining radialy spaced rivets you can locate them far

enough

away

from the end of the plug that there is no clearance problem. On the

rest

of

the control surfaces I changed those hole locations slightly. If you

counter

bore the inside of those 2 holes, use a drill press and secure the end

plug

well. The drill bit will grab and want to go all the way through. If

you

have an actual counter bore bit, even better.
Jesse

the

per

fitting

horn

make

the

know

rudder

the

the

of

cap

and

a

any

fix

into

the

the

the

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[Wayne G. O'Shea]

Yes and Yes...50% of the time on the stainless RR5606's you'll hear the
mandrel "ping" inside the tube as the stem breaks when pulling. Be sure to
shake the tube around and dump them out thru the 1/4" tapped hole before
final assembly. Also be sure you are dipping these stainless (all the rivets
for that matter) in epoxy before pulling. This will help lock the mandrels
in that don't fly out when pulling.

The trick with the plastic mallet is to hit it hard enough to get the mfg'd
rivet head down tight as you slowly pull up the shop head. Takes some good
timing..but very "doable".

Cheers,
Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Breathnach" <breathnach@shaw.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2005 1:02 PM
Subject: Re: Rebel Rudder

Hi Wayne,

Thanx for the info.

Im new to building so that explains this question. Does "ping" mean that

the

mandrel removes itself from the rivet leaving a hole right tru the body of
the rivet? Also if you could elaborate on the use of the "plastic mallet

on

the air riveter head..." that would be great. Is the idea to actually

whack

the riveter head during the process of pulling the rivet?

Thank you

Brian

----- Original Message -----
From: "Wayne G. O'Shea" <oifa@irishfield.on.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2005 8:39 PM
Subject: Re: Rebel Rudder

Most of the mandrels "ping" right out of the stainless rivets when the
mandrel breaks anyhow.

Another trick is the old plastic mallet on the air riveter head as you
slowly pull the rivet...to drive the rivet into place as the shop head
forms.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Breathnach" <breathnach@shaw.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, October 31, 2005 11:29 PM
Subject: Re: Rebel Rudder

Hi Mike,
Thank you for the prompt response.
Have established that the absence of a mandril in a rivet does not

affect

the safety of the kit so the intent is to remove the mandril and that

will

allow me to insert and pull the appropriate rivets. Being new to the

build

experience I was/am intrigued by the low air pressure and hard push
technique you describe below. Will keep that in mind for sure.
thanx again Mike
Brian

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jones, Michael" <Michael.Jones@snclavalin.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2005 4:31 AM
Subject: RE: Rebel Rudder

others

push

really

give

it

the

per

the right.

horn

was

the

Titanic

this

is

rudder

the

the

of

cap

and

as

a

tomb

any

fix

into

the

the

the

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[Brian Breathnach]

Got it!
Thanx
Brian
----- Original Message -----
From: "Wayne G. O'Shea" <oifa@irishfield.on.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 02, 2005 2:19 PM
Subject: Re: Rebel Rudder

Yes and Yes...50% of the time on the stainless RR5606's you'll hear the
mandrel "ping" inside the tube as the stem breaks when pulling. Be sure to
shake the tube around and dump them out thru the 1/4" tapped hole before
final assembly. Also be sure you are dipping these stainless (all the

rivets

for that matter) in epoxy before pulling. This will help lock the mandrels
in that don't fly out when pulling.

The trick with the plastic mallet is to hit it hard enough to get the

mfg'd

rivet head down tight as you slowly pull up the shop head. Takes some good
timing..but very "doable".

Cheers,
Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Breathnach" <breathnach@shaw.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2005 1:02 PM
Subject: Re: Rebel Rudder

Hi Wayne,

Thanx for the info.

Im new to building so that explains this question. Does "ping" mean that

the

mandrel removes itself from the rivet leaving a hole right tru the body

of

the rivet? Also if you could elaborate on the use of the "plastic mallet

on

the air riveter head..." that would be great. Is the idea to actually

whack

the riveter head during the process of pulling the rivet?

Thank you

Brian

----- Original Message -----
From: "Wayne G. O'Shea" <oifa@irishfield.on.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2005 8:39 PM
Subject: Re: Rebel Rudder

Most of the mandrels "ping" right out of the stainless rivets when the
mandrel breaks anyhow.

Another trick is the old plastic mallet on the air riveter head as you
slowly pull the rivet...to drive the rivet into place as the shop head
forms.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Breathnach" <breathnach@shaw.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, October 31, 2005 11:29 PM
Subject: Re: Rebel Rudder

affect

that

will

build

the

push

give

it

Of

on

the

as

per

fitting

horn

make

the

the

where

this

the

rudder

the

the

because

of

the

cap

as

a

appreciate

any

into

redo

the

to

the

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