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Fuel pump setup. was RE: Electric Water Pump?

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Mike Kimball

Fuel pump setup. was RE: Electric Water Pump?

Post by Mike Kimball » Sat Feb 18, 2012 10:31 am

Regarding my fuel pump setup, I was planning on gravity feed, maybe with an
electric pump to help me out with any vapor lock problems. I don't know if
the electric pump would be any advantage for anything else. Other airplanes
using gravity feed usually have carburetors below the engine. Since my carb
is on top of the engine I have 2 or 3 feet less head pressure. I don't know
whether that's enough to make a difference requiring an electric pump. It
seems like the pressure at the carb would lower as the fuel level in the
tank lowers too but it's been over 30 years since I've had high school
physics so I don't know about that either. Easy enough to check. I can
just get a pressure gauge and measure the pressure at the carb with only a
bit of fuel in the tank. Since my wings aren't on I can do that with a
jerry can. If there's enough pressure at the carb + some margin (say 5 psi)
to run my carb with very low fuel I may forgo using an electric pump at all.
By the way, a mechanical pump is out of the question. I didn't realize
until the engine was completely built that Rodeck delivers their engine
blocks with the fuel pump shaft hole not drilled through all the way. Quite
a surprise when I went to mount the standard Chevy fuel pump!

Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
rickhm@comcast.net
Sent: Saturday, May 07, 2005 2:02 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Electric Water Pump?


I don't recall your fuel pump setup, but many V8 installations utilize dual
fuel pumps and check valves. This could be done with the water pump as
well. This way if you loose a belt, you have the electric water pump as a
backup. If you loose an alternator, turn/leave the electric fuel pump off.
I design medical equipment and we use this model frequently, it is refered
to as the 2 fault model where you must have 2 failures independant of each
other in order to create a hazard. Again, I am not sure of your setup, but
in many auto's if you loose a belt you would loose the alternator AND the
water pump which isn't good. In such a setup, an electric water pump with a
check valve would keep the engine cool while you ran on battery to find a
place to set down.

Rick Muller
SR070

-------------- Original message --------------
I thought I'd take advantage of the many learned people of the list to get
opinions about using an electric water pump versus a belt driven pump on
my
Chevy V8. I figure a power loss is going to be a problem for me anyway
with
my MSD ignition, so losing my source of power would not deter me from
choosing an electric pump. I just have to make sure I don't lose the
source. Anybody have any insight into the reliability of the electric
pumps
themselves? If the odds of losing the electric pump due to an internal
failure are at least equal to the odds of breaking a belt, then I'm
inclined
to go with the electric pump. One drawback I can think of is less reserve
time on the battery to get on the ground if I lose the alternator.

Mike Kimball
044SR




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Al Paxhia

Fuel pump setup. was RE: Electric Water Pump?

Post by Al Paxhia » Sat Feb 18, 2012 10:31 am

Mike,
Keep in mind that the head pressure will be much less at a high angle of
attack. I would use the electric pump on takeoff and landing just to be
ready for a go around.
Al
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Kimball" <mkimball@gci.net>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Saturday, May 07, 2005 4:34 PM
Subject: Fuel pump setup. was RE: Electric Water Pump?

Regarding my fuel pump setup, I was planning on gravity feed, maybe with
an
electric pump to help me out with any vapor lock problems. I don't know
if
the electric pump would be any advantage for anything else. Other
airplanes
using gravity feed usually have carburetors below the engine. Since my
carb
is on top of the engine I have 2 or 3 feet less head pressure. I don't
know
whether that's enough to make a difference requiring an electric pump. It
seems like the pressure at the carb would lower as the fuel level in the
tank lowers too but it's been over 30 years since I've had high school
physics so I don't know about that either. Easy enough to check. I can
just get a pressure gauge and measure the pressure at the carb with only a
bit of fuel in the tank. Since my wings aren't on I can do that with a
jerry can. If there's enough pressure at the carb + some margin (say 5
psi)
to run my carb with very low fuel I may forgo using an electric pump at
all.
By the way, a mechanical pump is out of the question. I didn't realize
until the engine was completely built that Rodeck delivers their engine
blocks with the fuel pump shaft hole not drilled through all the way.
Quite
a surprise when I went to mount the standard Chevy fuel pump!

Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
rickhm@comcast.net
Sent: Saturday, May 07, 2005 2:02 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Electric Water Pump?


I don't recall your fuel pump setup, but many V8 installations utilize
dual
fuel pumps and check valves. This could be done with the water pump as
well. This way if you loose a belt, you have the electric water pump as a
backup. If you loose an alternator, turn/leave the electric fuel pump
off.
I design medical equipment and we use this model frequently, it is refered
to as the 2 fault model where you must have 2 failures independant of each
other in order to create a hazard. Again, I am not sure of your setup,
but
in many auto's if you loose a belt you would loose the alternator AND the
water pump which isn't good. In such a setup, an electric water pump with
a
check valve would keep the engine cool while you ran on battery to find a
place to set down.

Rick Muller
SR070

-------------- Original message --------------
I thought I'd take advantage of the many learned people of the list to
get
opinions about using an electric water pump versus a belt driven pump on
my
Chevy V8. I figure a power loss is going to be a problem for me anyway
with
my MSD ignition, so losing my source of power would not deter me from
choosing an electric pump. I just have to make sure I don't lose the
source. Anybody have any insight into the reliability of the electric
pumps
themselves? If the odds of losing the electric pump due to an internal
failure are at least equal to the odds of breaking a belt, then I'm
inclined
to go with the electric pump. One drawback I can think of is less reserve
time on the battery to get on the ground if I lose the alternator.

Mike Kimball
044SR




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rickhm

Fuel pump setup. was RE: Electric Water Pump?

Post by rickhm » Sat Feb 18, 2012 10:31 am

A buddy of mine races cars. He use to run carb's and has moved to injected. One point he made was that a regulated pressure with a narrow range of variation does wonders for fuel effeciency. Not sure this is true with carb vs injection. Another consideration is will you have the head pressure (pressure btn wing and carb) in a high nose up attitude. Just some thoughts!

-------------- Original message --------------
Regarding my fuel pump setup, I was planning on gravity feed, maybe with an
electric pump to help me out with any vapor lock problems. I don't know if
the electric pump would be any advantage for anything else. Other airplanes
using gravity feed usually have carburetors below the engine. Since my carb
is on top of the engine I have 2 or 3 feet less head pressure. I don't know
whether that's enough to make a difference requiring an electric pump. It
seems like the pressure at the carb would lower as the fuel level in the
tank lowers too but it's been over 30 years since I've had high school
physics so I don't know about that either. Easy enough to check. I can
just get a pressure gauge and measure the pressure at the carb with only a
bit of fuel in the tank. Since my wings aren't on I can do that with a
jerry can. If there's enough pressure at the carb + some margin (say 5 psi)
to run my carb with very low fuel I may forgo using an electric pump at all.
By the way, a mechanical pump is out of the question. I didn't realize
until the engine was completely built that Rodeck delivers their engine
blocks with the fuel pump shaft hole not drilled through all the way. Quite
a surprise when I went to mount the standard Chevy fuel pump!

Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
rickhm@comcast.net
Sent: Saturday, May 07, 2005 2:02 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Electric Water Pump?


I don't recall your fuel pump setup, but many V8 installations utilize dual
fuel pumps and check valves. This could be done with the water pump as
well. This way if you loose a belt, you have the electric water pump as a
backup. If you loose an alternator, turn/leave the electric fuel pump off.
I design medical equipment and we use this model frequently, it is refered
to as the 2 fault model where you must have 2 failures independant of each
other in order to create a hazard. Again, I am not sure of your setup, but
in many auto's if you loose a belt you would loose the alternator AND the
water pump which isn't good. In such a setup, an electric water pump with a
check valve would keep the engine cool while you ran on battery to find a
place to set down.

Rick Muller
SR070

-------------- Original message --------------
I thought I'd take advantage of the many learned people of the list to get
opinions about using an electric water pump versus a belt driven pump on
my
Chevy V8. I figure a power loss is going to be a problem for me anyway
with
my MSD ignition, so losing my source of power would not deter me from
choosing an electric pump. I just have to make sure I don't lose the
source. Anybody have any insight into the reliability of the electric
pumps
themselves? If the odds of losing the electric pump due to an internal
failure are at least equal to the odds of breaking a belt, then I'm
inclined
to go with the electric pump. One drawback I can think of is less reserve
time on the battery to get on the ground if I lose the alternator.

Mike Kimball
044SR




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Mike Kimball

Fuel pump setup. was RE: Electric Water Pump?

Post by Mike Kimball » Sat Feb 18, 2012 10:31 am

Seems to me that with carbs pressure variations wouldn't matter much for
efficiency as long as there's enough pressure to keep the float bowls full.
But the high angle of attack issue must certainly be considered. That
brings the carb even closer to the same level as the wings which would
definitely reduce pressure. So I'll go with my original plan which was to
count on gravity feed, but have an electric pump somewhere low in the
system, and run the electric pump during takeoffs and landings. Takeoffs
for sure. Can anyone recommend a pump that flows well when it's not
running? I don't want the pump itself to drop the pressure when it's off.

Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
rickhm@comcast.net
Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2005 4:14 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Fuel pump setup. was RE: Electric Water Pump?


A buddy of mine races cars. He use to run carb's and has moved to injected.
One point he made was that a regulated pressure with a narrow range of
variation does wonders for fuel effeciency. Not sure this is true with carb
vs injection. Another consideration is will you have the head pressure
(pressure btn wing and carb) in a high nose up attitude. Just some
thoughts!

-------------- Original message --------------
Regarding my fuel pump setup, I was planning on gravity feed, maybe with
an
electric pump to help me out with any vapor lock problems. I don't know if
the electric pump would be any advantage for anything else. Other
airplanes
using gravity feed usually have carburetors below the engine. Since my
carb
is on top of the engine I have 2 or 3 feet less head pressure. I don't
know
whether that's enough to make a difference requiring an electric pump. It
seems like the pressure at the carb would lower as the fuel level in the
tank lowers too but it's been over 30 years since I've had high school
physics so I don't know about that either. Easy enough to check. I can
just get a pressure gauge and measure the pressure at the carb with only a
bit of fuel in the tank. Since my wings aren't on I can do that with a
jerry can. If there's enough pressure at the carb + some margin (say 5
psi)
to run my carb with very low fuel I may forgo using an electric pump at
all.
By the way, a mechanical pump is out of the question. I didn't realize
until the engine was completely built that Rodeck delivers their engine
blocks with the fuel pump shaft hole not drilled through all the way.
Quite
a surprise when I went to mount the standard Chevy fuel pump!

Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
rickhm@comcast.net
Sent: Saturday, May 07, 2005 2:02 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Electric Water Pump?


I don't recall your fuel pump setup, but many V8 installations utilize
dual
fuel pumps and check valves. This could be done with the water pump as
well. This way if you loose a belt, you have the electric water pump as a
backup. If you loose an alternator, turn/leave the electric fuel pump off.
I design medical equipment and we use this model frequently, it is refered
to as the 2 fault model where you must have 2 failures independant of each
other in order to create a hazard. Again, I am not sure of your setup, but
in many auto's if you loose a belt you would loose the alternator AND the
water pump which isn't good. In such a setup, an electric water pump with
a
check valve would keep the engine cool while you ran on battery to find a
place to set down.

Rick Muller
SR070

-------------- Original message --------------
I thought I'd take advantage of the many learned people of the list to
get
opinions about using an electric water pump versus a belt driven pump on
my
Chevy V8. I figure a power loss is going to be a problem for me anyway
with
my MSD ignition, so losing my source of power would not deter me from
choosing an electric pump. I just have to make sure I don't lose the
source. Anybody have any insight into the reliability of the electric
pumps
themselves? If the odds of losing the electric pump due to an internal
failure are at least equal to the odds of breaking a belt, then I'm
inclined
to go with the electric pump. One drawback I can think of is less
reserve
time on the battery to get on the ground if I lose the alternator.

Mike Kimball
044SR




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