Moose purchase questions

[Mike Davis]

----- Original Message -----

- How does one evaluate the quality of workmanship?

I think a good indication of whether the builder took the time to do things
right is in the little details... are the corners all radiused, or are they
still the sharp points like the come from the factory? Are the finished
components clean, or are there scratches, smears, bumps, and dimples? It's
hard to mess up an avex rivet, but look to see that the heads are all pulled
tight against the pieces, look for mandrels that are broken off proud...
there was a problem with a batch of rivets that MAM supplied at one time,
and it would create a lot of work to clean all those up. Bottom line on the
workmanship, considering the parts and pieces your looking at, would you be
happy to tell someone that you assembled those pieces?

- I'm told all current Murphy AD's have been complied with. I assume
the builder can show me where and how he complied with such. Any
"gotcha's" in this process?

As already mention, you can view all the service bulletins on MAM's web
site.

- The builder mentioned perhaps changing out the vertical fin (?) for a
larger mod to prevent yaw in flight that apparently some other flying
Moose's experience? This is the first I've heard of such despite
monitoring this list for a long time. Does anyone know anything about
this issue?

Already covered...

- What (build) documentation should I expect to see (pictures of the
process, written log, ?)

You will of course want any documentation you can get, both for your own
satisfaction, and to provide to the FAA when it comes time to register the
aircraft. Unfortunately, since you wont be able to meet the 51% rule as
most of the work is apparently done, you wont qualify for a repairman
certificate, which means you can't do the inspections yourself.

- In terms of builder documentation, what would be a red flag?

Might talk to your local FSDO's airworthiness department to see if they have
any red flags when it comes inspection time. It wont do you any good to
have a completed airplane if they wont certify it due to inadequate builders
documentation.

- I've read here on the list that Murphy is coming out with some sort of
slow-flight kit enhancements (e.g. different wingtip, VG's, other?). If
anyone knows of such how difficult might it be to retrofit such on a kit
that is (supposedly) 95% complete (I know, it's hard to say without
seeing, but in general terms...)

Just wing tips at this time, which can be changed to at any stage.

- In talking to the builder, it seems that he has installed virtually
all the MP14 options available from Kimball Enterprises. Any comments
on items to examine regarding the MP-14 are appreciated (I know, this is
a very general a question--I'm interested in "gotcha's" or red flags
that folks might be aware of)

Can't help you here as I've never seriously looked at the round engine.

- This plane would operate only on wheels, as I'm in CO and there are no
(that I am aware of) legal, public, places to land a floatplane in the
whole state! The kit I'm looking at apparently has Murphy 16x6 wheels
that normally ship with the Moose quickbuild kit. Any comments on the
wheels/tires (e.g. good; recommend switch to something else)

If I remember correctly, the SR2500 shipped with 8.00 x 6, and the Moose
shipped with 8.50 x 6 tires. If you're going with the M14, you'll want the
larger tires simply for prop clearance. Murphy also offers an adapter to
mount truck wheels with 31 x 10.5 tires... these are their "Alaska Wheels".
These really get that nose up and out of the gravel.

- Overall, I'm interested in any and all suggestions folks might have
for doing my prepurchase kit inspection.

You didn't mention whether this was built from a kit, or quick built. If
quick built then you can be pretty well assured of the quality, not saying
it's better or worse than kit built, just a known quantity. Other QB
builders on the list could certainly tell you what areas need to be looked
at closely... I know there have been a few issues.

Again, I thank any and all for their time on my email,

Ted Waltman

Good luck, Mike




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[Ted Waltman]

Folks,

I'm looking at purchasing a nearly complete Moose kit from a gentleman.
Though I have the desire, I'm not an A&P nor do I have any experience
whatsoever in aircraft building. I would have an A&P friend
supervise/assist me in the completion. I've been monitoring this
listserver for sometime and I continue to be extremely impressed by the
quality of postings and the caliber of individual on this list--that is
a big reason for looking at a Moose in the first place.

I would appreciate any and all advise on the below questions. I
appreciate your time. Heck, if you attend this year's Oshkosh I'll buy
beers (that's plural for those unusually thirsty folks) for anyone that
replies <grin> (that ought to get some replies). During my prepurchase
inspection:

- How does one evaluate the quality of workmanship?

- I'm told all current Murphy AD's have been complied with. I assume
the builder can show me where and how he complied with such. Any
"gotcha's" in this process?

- The builder mentioned perhaps changing out the vertical fin (?) for a
larger mod to prevent yaw in flight that apparently some other flying
Moose's experience? This is the first I've heard of such despite
monitoring this list for a long time. Does anyone know anything about
this issue?

- What (build) documentation should I expect to see (pictures of the
process, written log, ?)

- In terms of builder documentation, what would be a red flag?

- I've read here on the list that Murphy is coming out with some sort of
slow-flight kit enhancements (e.g. different wingtip, VG's, other?). If
anyone knows of such how difficult might it be to retrofit such on a kit
that is (supposedly) 95% complete (I know, it's hard to say without
seeing, but in general terms...)

- In talking to the builder, it seems that he has installed virtually
all the MP14 options available from Kimball Enterprises. Any comments
on items to examine regarding the MP-14 are appreciated (I know, this is
a very general a question--I'm interested in "gotcha's" or red flags
that folks might be aware of)

- This plane would operate only on wheels, as I'm in CO and there are no
(that I am aware of) legal, public, places to land a floatplane in the
whole state! The kit I'm looking at apparently has Murphy 16x6 wheels
that normally ship with the Moose quickbuild kit. Any comments on the
wheels/tires (e.g. good; recommend switch to something else)

- Overall, I'm interested in any and all suggestions folks might have
for doing my prepurchase kit inspection.

Again, I thank any and all for their time on my email,

Ted Waltman



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[Ted Waltman]

Kit is in Canada (N British Columbia to be exact).

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
David Stroud
Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2004 1:11 PM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Moose purchase questions


Is the subject Moose located in the State of Maine? If so, I cannot
remember his name but I think I met him at Sun n Fun. He seemed like a
fairly straight forward person and I was impressed with his knowledge of
aircraft in general. He was engaged in a conversation with Robin Dyck
when we met on the field in front of the Demo Moose.

Dave Stroud, Ottawa, Canada
Christavia C-FDWS
Fairchild 51 early construction

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Delcambre" <bdelcambre@cox-internet.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2004 2:54 PM
Subject: Re: Moose purchase questions

Impressed by the caliber of individuals and the quality of postings,
huh? Before we go any further, does this qualify me for the beers?
I'm one of the thirstier ones.....

Be aware of the oldest axiom in homebuilding: 90% done & 90% to go.
When all the big parts are done and it looks like an airplane, there's

an awful lot left to do. Much of the remainder is the most
challenging work, also. Is the engine hung? How much of the
electrical system is installed? Pneumatic system installed? Engine
controls hooked up? Cowl done? Interior installed? Prop included /
installed?

You don't have to be an A&P to build the plane. You just need to be
comfortable with tools and reasonably mechanically inclined. If you
don't know which end of the screwdriver to grab, pass on the
opportunity. You ever taken on a big project? There's a degree of
patience required that not everyone posseses. I'd suggest that you
find a builder near you (or the subject plane) and ask him to give her

a look over. Doesn't matter what he's building, you're just looking
for workmanship issues. Your A&P buddy could do this with you, but
he's probably used to working on factory stuff and to tell you the
truth, you'll rarely see a homebuilt that isn't built better than most

of the factory jobs. Some A&P's that I've met are so leery of
homebuilts that they've never seen one they'd ride in.

Is it a Murphy 3500 Moose, or is it a SR2500 that was COMPLETELY
upgraded? Or was it mostly upgraded? Or, ..... He should be able to
show you evidence of the upgrade if it wasn't a 3500. Most folks take

pictures during the build process, if not for proof of workmanship,

then for

reminders of how stuff was done. Look for the workmanship in the

pics.

Same applies to Murphy service bulletins. (not exactly A.D.'s.) You
can get all the bulletins from Murphy's site and look at the plane
easy enough to see that they've been done or ask to see the pics that
document such.

He might be talking about a larger Ventral fin. A couple of the
Canadian builders use larger fins on floats. This has something to do

with the coriolis affect being skewed by a tear in the space / time
continum, north of the border. {joke}There are some real aerodynamic
issues that affect float planes that don't apply to wheeled planes.
Don't recall anyone using more vertical area on wheel planes. Don't
know for sure, but I've never heard of a larger vertical stab. High
lift wingtips can be done anytime. Even if the originals are done and
complete. Just takes time and money.

Kimball produces some real nice stuff. I've got a few of their kits
and I'll tell you that I'm tempted to buy another exhaust manifold,
just to use as a decoration.

Most (not all, however) builders do good work. You'll occasionally
see something built by someone who shouldn't have built a plane, but
those examples are pretty obvious. These "red flags" will jump out
and bite you. Why is the guy selling? Was this his first airplane
project? If the guy has more hammers than files in his shop, you
might pass. Has the builder made many "improvements" to the design.
Little items like extra lights, or convenience stuff is good. If he's

found a better way to do the wing spar attach points, run quickly!
Are YOU impressed with the workmanship? Does anything make you
nervous about the project and if so, have you discussed the issues
with the builder?

Good luck. Building is incredibly rewarding in a lot of ways. You'll

learn the satisfaction of creating something with your hands. You'll
enjoy the final product. And you'll acquire an education that money
can't buy.

Now, about those beers........

Bill Delcambre
SR172FB (currently stored, due to relocation in progress.)

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ted Waltman" <tedwaltman@i1ci.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2004 12:54 PM
Subject: Moose purchase questions

Folks,

I'm looking at purchasing a nearly complete Moose kit from a
gentleman.

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[Bill Delcambre]

Impressed by the caliber of individuals and the quality of postings, huh?
Before we go any further, does this qualify me for the beers? I'm one of
the thirstier ones.....

Be aware of the oldest axiom in homebuilding: 90% done & 90% to go. When
all the big parts are done and it looks like an airplane, there's an awful
lot left to do. Much of the remainder is the most challenging work, also.
Is the engine hung? How much of the electrical system is installed?
Pneumatic system installed? Engine controls hooked up? Cowl done? Interior
installed? Prop included / installed?

You don't have to be an A&P to build the plane. You just need to be
comfortable with tools and reasonably mechanically inclined. If you don't
know which end of the screwdriver to grab, pass on the opportunity. You
ever taken on a big project? There's a degree of patience required that not
everyone posseses. I'd suggest that you find a builder near you (or the
subject plane) and ask him to give her a look over. Doesn't matter what
he's building, you're just looking for workmanship issues. Your A&P buddy
could do this with you, but he's probably used to working on factory stuff
and to tell you the truth, you'll rarely see a homebuilt that isn't built
better than most of the factory jobs. Some A&P's that I've met are so leery
of homebuilts that they've never seen one they'd ride in.

Is it a Murphy 3500 Moose, or is it a SR2500 that was COMPLETELY upgraded?
Or was it mostly upgraded? Or, ..... He should be able to show you
evidence of the upgrade if it wasn't a 3500. Most folks take pictures
during the build process, if not for proof of workmanship, then for
reminders of how stuff was done. Look for the workmanship in the pics.
Same applies to Murphy service bulletins. (not exactly A.D.'s.) You can get
all the bulletins from Murphy's site and look at the plane easy enough to
see that they've been done or ask to see the pics that document such.

He might be talking about a larger Ventral fin. A couple of the Canadian
builders use larger fins on floats. This has something to do with the
coriolis affect being skewed by a tear in the space / time continum, north
of the border. {joke}There are some real aerodynamic issues that affect
float planes that don't apply to wheeled planes. Don't recall anyone using
more vertical area on wheel planes. Don't know for sure, but I've never
heard of a larger vertical stab. High lift wingtips can be done anytime.
Even if the originals are done and complete. Just takes time and money.

Kimball produces some real nice stuff. I've got a few of their kits and
I'll tell you that I'm tempted to buy another exhaust manifold, just to use
as a decoration.

Most (not all, however) builders do good work. You'll occasionally see
something built by someone who shouldn't have built a plane, but those
examples are pretty obvious. These "red flags" will jump out and bite you.
Why is the guy selling? Was this his first airplane project? If the guy
has more hammers than files in his shop, you might pass. Has the builder
made many "improvements" to the design. Little items like extra lights, or
convenience stuff is good. If he's found a better way to do the wing spar
attach points, run quickly! Are YOU impressed with the workmanship? Does
anything make you nervous about the project and if so, have you discussed
the issues with the builder?

Good luck. Building is incredibly rewarding in a lot of ways. You'll learn
the satisfaction of creating something with your hands. You'll enjoy the
final product. And you'll acquire an education that money can't buy.

Now, about those beers........

Bill Delcambre
SR172FB (currently stored, due to relocation in progress.)

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ted Waltman" <tedwaltman@i1ci.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2004 12:54 PM
Subject: Moose purchase questions

Folks,

I'm looking at purchasing a nearly complete Moose kit from a gentleman.

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[Ted Waltman]

Thanks to Mike & Bill (and others that I'm sure will write in too) for
very helpful suggestions. I continue to learn something (lots of
things) everyday from this list. I owe a lot of folks beers at Oshkosh
just for the shared knowledge!

Thank you again!

Ted Waltman

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]
Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2004 2:31 PM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Moose purchase questions



----- Original Message -----

- How does one evaluate the quality of workmanship?

I think a good indication of whether the builder took the time to do
things right is in the little details... are the corners all radiused,
or are they still the sharp points like the come from the factory? Are
the finished components clean, or are there scratches, smears, bumps,
and dimples? It's hard to mess up an avex rivet, but look to see that
the heads are all pulled tight against the pieces, look for mandrels
that are broken off proud... there was a problem with a batch of rivets
that MAM supplied at one time, and it would create a lot of work to
clean all those up. Bottom line on the workmanship, considering the
parts and pieces your looking at, would you be happy to tell someone
that you assembled those pieces?

- I'm told all current Murphy AD's have been complied with. I assume
the builder can show me where and how he complied with such. Any
"gotcha's" in this process?

As already mention, you can view all the service bulletins on MAM's web
site.

- The builder mentioned perhaps changing out the vertical fin (?) for
a larger mod to prevent yaw in flight that apparently some other
flying Moose's experience? This is the first I've heard of such
despite monitoring this list for a long time. Does anyone know
anything about this issue?

Already covered...

- What (build) documentation should I expect to see (pictures of the
process, written log, ?)

You will of course want any documentation you can get, both for your own
satisfaction, and to provide to the FAA when it comes time to register
the aircraft. Unfortunately, since you wont be able to meet the 51%
rule as most of the work is apparently done, you wont qualify for a
repairman certificate, which means you can't do the inspections
yourself.

- In terms of builder documentation, what would be a red flag?

Might talk to your local FSDO's airworthiness department to see if they
have any red flags when it comes inspection time. It wont do you any
good to have a completed airplane if they wont certify it due to
inadequate builders documentation.

- I've read here on the list that Murphy is coming out with some sort
of slow-flight kit enhancements (e.g. different wingtip, VG's,
other?). If anyone knows of such how difficult might it be to
retrofit such on a kit that is (supposedly) 95% complete (I know, it's

hard to say without seeing, but in general terms...)

Just wing tips at this time, which can be changed to at any stage.

- In talking to the builder, it seems that he has installed virtually
all the MP14 options available from Kimball Enterprises. Any comments

on items to examine regarding the MP-14 are appreciated (I know, this
is a very general a question--I'm interested in "gotcha's" or red
flags that folks might be aware of)

Can't help you here as I've never seriously looked at the round engine.

- This plane would operate only on wheels, as I'm in CO and there are
no (that I am aware of) legal, public, places to land a floatplane in
the whole state! The kit I'm looking at apparently has Murphy 16x6
wheels that normally ship with the Moose quickbuild kit. Any comments

on the wheels/tires (e.g. good; recommend switch to something else)

If I remember correctly, the SR2500 shipped with 8.00 x 6, and the Moose
shipped with 8.50 x 6 tires. If you're going with the M14, you'll want
the larger tires simply for prop clearance. Murphy also offers an
adapter to mount truck wheels with 31 x 10.5 tires... these are their
"Alaska Wheels". These really get that nose up and out of the gravel.

- Overall, I'm interested in any and all suggestions folks might have
for doing my prepurchase kit inspection.

You didn't mention whether this was built from a kit, or quick built.
If quick built then you can be pretty well assured of the quality, not
saying it's better or worse than kit built, just a known quantity.
Other QB builders on the list could certainly tell you what areas need
to be looked at closely... I know there have been a few issues.

Again, I thank any and all for their time on my email,

Ted Waltman

Good luck, Mike




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[Ted Waltman]

Excellent points Ken. Your comments on the labor are intriguing. The
gentleman in Canada is selling to retire to a quieter life (he owns a
remote lodge now that the plane would have been used to get guests to).

Thanks very much...

Ted

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
klehman@albedo.net
Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2004 3:05 PM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Moose purchase questions


Ted

In that case there should be a written record of the pre-cover
inspections for all major components. The inspector (in Canada) must see

inside the wings, stab, control surfaces, fuselage floor etc before they

are riveted closed.

I would suggest that it is important to have someone familiar with
Murphy products look at it for general workmanship as others here have
mentioned. And you must feel that the seller is totally trustworthy.
This includes the reason for sale of a machine that is so close to being

finished. Even completed flying machines are occasionally quickly sold
because the owner isn't comfortably in it for various reasons or
shortcuts... (My opinion)

I also feel that in most cases one should put very little monetary value

on the labour that has been put into it. If you put a significant value
on the labour you might as well have it professionally built.

Ken

Ted Waltman wrote:

Kit is in Canada (N British Columbia to be exact).

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[David Stroud]

Is the subject Moose located in the State of Maine? If so, I cannot remember his name
but I think I met him at Sun n Fun. He seemed like a fairly straight forward person and I
was impressed with his knowledge of aircraft in general. He was engaged in a conversation
with Robin Dyck when we met on the field in front of the Demo Moose.

Dave Stroud, Ottawa, Canada
Christavia C-FDWS
Fairchild 51 early construction

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Delcambre" <bdelcambre@cox-internet.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2004 2:54 PM
Subject: Re: Moose purchase questions

Impressed by the caliber of individuals and the quality of postings, huh?
Before we go any further, does this qualify me for the beers? I'm one of
the thirstier ones.....

Be aware of the oldest axiom in homebuilding: 90% done & 90% to go. When
all the big parts are done and it looks like an airplane, there's an awful
lot left to do. Much of the remainder is the most challenging work, also.
Is the engine hung? How much of the electrical system is installed?
Pneumatic system installed? Engine controls hooked up? Cowl done? Interior
installed? Prop included / installed?

You don't have to be an A&P to build the plane. You just need to be
comfortable with tools and reasonably mechanically inclined. If you don't
know which end of the screwdriver to grab, pass on the opportunity. You
ever taken on a big project? There's a degree of patience required that not
everyone posseses. I'd suggest that you find a builder near you (or the
subject plane) and ask him to give her a look over. Doesn't matter what
he's building, you're just looking for workmanship issues. Your A&P buddy
could do this with you, but he's probably used to working on factory stuff
and to tell you the truth, you'll rarely see a homebuilt that isn't built
better than most of the factory jobs. Some A&P's that I've met are so leery
of homebuilts that they've never seen one they'd ride in.

Is it a Murphy 3500 Moose, or is it a SR2500 that was COMPLETELY upgraded?
Or was it mostly upgraded? Or, ..... He should be able to show you
evidence of the upgrade if it wasn't a 3500. Most folks take pictures
during the build process, if not for proof of workmanship, then for
reminders of how stuff was done. Look for the workmanship in the pics.
Same applies to Murphy service bulletins. (not exactly A.D.'s.) You can get
all the bulletins from Murphy's site and look at the plane easy enough to
see that they've been done or ask to see the pics that document such.

He might be talking about a larger Ventral fin. A couple of the Canadian
builders use larger fins on floats. This has something to do with the
coriolis affect being skewed by a tear in the space / time continum, north
of the border. {joke}There are some real aerodynamic issues that affect
float planes that don't apply to wheeled planes. Don't recall anyone using
more vertical area on wheel planes. Don't know for sure, but I've never
heard of a larger vertical stab. High lift wingtips can be done anytime.
Even if the originals are done and complete. Just takes time and money.

Kimball produces some real nice stuff. I've got a few of their kits and
I'll tell you that I'm tempted to buy another exhaust manifold, just to use
as a decoration.

Most (not all, however) builders do good work. You'll occasionally see
something built by someone who shouldn't have built a plane, but those
examples are pretty obvious. These "red flags" will jump out and bite you.
Why is the guy selling? Was this his first airplane project? If the guy
has more hammers than files in his shop, you might pass. Has the builder
made many "improvements" to the design. Little items like extra lights, or
convenience stuff is good. If he's found a better way to do the wing spar
attach points, run quickly! Are YOU impressed with the workmanship? Does
anything make you nervous about the project and if so, have you discussed
the issues with the builder?

Good luck. Building is incredibly rewarding in a lot of ways. You'll learn
the satisfaction of creating something with your hands. You'll enjoy the
final product. And you'll acquire an education that money can't buy.

Now, about those beers........

Bill Delcambre
SR172FB (currently stored, due to relocation in progress.)

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ted Waltman" <tedwaltman@i1ci.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2004 12:54 PM
Subject: Moose purchase questions

Folks,

I'm looking at purchasing a nearly complete Moose kit from a gentleman.

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[klehman]

Ted

In that case there should be a written record of the pre-cover
inspections for all major components. The inspector (in Canada) must see
inside the wings, stab, control surfaces, fuselage floor etc before they
are riveted closed.

I would suggest that it is important to have someone familiar with
Murphy products look at it for general workmanship as others here have
mentioned. And you must feel that the seller is totally trustworthy.
This includes the reason for sale of a machine that is so close to being
finished. Even completed flying machines are occasionally quickly sold
because the owner isn't comfortably in it for various reasons or
shortcuts... (My opinion)

I also feel that in most cases one should put very little monetary value
on the labour that has been put into it. If you put a significant value
on the labour you might as well have it professionally built.

Ken

Ted Waltman wrote:

Kit is in Canada (N British Columbia to be exact).

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