SR fuel system questions

[Tim Saxton]

After reviewing the archives for fuel system ideas, my plan is to keep the fuel system simple. The fuel lines will come in from the wing tanks to the fuel shutoff valves, then run down the rear door posts and tee together under the floor. Then into the gascolator at low point and then into a header tank (fuel injected engine). Gascolator and header will be under the floor. Output of the header is to dual electric fuel pumps. No fuel selector switch to manage so as long as there is fuel in either wing tank there shouldn't be any chance of fuel starvation. I'll use the 3/8" supplied aluminum tubing supplied by MAM.

Any recommendations for gascolator model? ACS has models for less than $70, including an inexpensive "homebuilder's special" but it is not for use with auto fuel. Andair and other gascolators are much more expensive, $150 and more. Is this a case were it's worth spending the extra money?

How big does the header tank have to be, 1-2 gallons? Where can I get a header tank this size, or is it easier just to make one? I'll vent the tank back to the overhead cross vent line, routing the header vent line back up the rear door post. Can I get by with 1/4" aluminum tubing for the header vent or should I stick with the 3/8" tubing?

Tim
SR060



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[Rhodes]

Check out www.stevesaircraft.com for high quality gascolators machined from
aluminum and STC'd for many certified aircraft. Price $195-$245.
Steve Rhodes
Moose 173




----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Saxton" <tim.saxton@shaw.ca>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2004 10:31
Subject: SR fuel system questions

After reviewing the archives for fuel system ideas, my plan is to keep the

fuel system simple. The fuel lines will come in from the wing tanks to the
fuel shutoff valves, then run down the rear door posts and tee together
under the floor. Then into the gascolator at low point and then into a
header tank (fuel injected engine). Gascolator and header will be under the
floor. Output of the header is to dual electric fuel pumps. No fuel selector
switch to manage so as long as there is fuel in either wing tank there
shouldn't be any chance of fuel starvation. I'll use the 3/8" supplied
aluminum tubing supplied by MAM.

Any recommendations for gascolator model? ACS has models for less than

$70, including an inexpensive "homebuilder's special" but it is not for use
with auto fuel. Andair and other gascolators are much more expensive, $150
and more. Is this a case were it's worth spending the extra money?

How big does the header tank have to be, 1-2 gallons? Where can I get a

header tank this size, or is it easier just to make one? I'll vent the tank
back to the overhead cross vent line, routing the header vent line back up
the rear door post. Can I get by with 1/4" aluminum tubing for the header
vent or should I stick with the 3/8" tubing?

Tim
SR060

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[Bill Delcambre]

The first plane I built didn't have a gascolator, but rather a fuel filter.
Stoddard-Hamilton provided a high performance Fram fuel filter assy. I
believe the part # is HPG1. I bought one to put on my Moose (not there
yet...). I'm gonna install the filter assy on the firewall, downstream of
the electric pump. It uses a replaceable filter element and it'll flow
enough to feed more engine than you could hang on a Moose. By welding a
steel AN male nipple to the bowl, you can pipe a bowl drain on it. It's
good for all the pressure that the electric pump can provide and actually
removes particulates, as opposed to the gascolator catching boulders.

Just another way to do it.

Bill

----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Saxton" <tim.saxton@shaw.ca>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2004 1:31 AM
Subject: SR fuel system questions

After reviewing the archives for fuel system ideas, my plan is to keep the

fuel system simple. The fuel lines will come in from the wing tanks to the
fuel shutoff valves, then run down the rear door posts and tee together
under the floor. Then into the gascolator at low point and then into a
header tank (fuel injected engine). Gascolator and header will be under the
floor. Output of the header is to dual electric fuel pumps. No fuel selector
switch to manage so as long as there is fuel in either wing tank there
shouldn't be any chance of fuel starvation. I'll use the 3/8" supplied
aluminum tubing supplied by MAM.

Any recommendations for gascolator model? ACS has models for less than

$70, including an inexpensive "homebuilder's special" but it is not for use
with auto fuel. Andair and other gascolators are much more expensive, $150
and more. Is this a case were it's worth spending the extra money?

How big does the header tank have to be, 1-2 gallons? Where can I get a

header tank this size, or is it easier just to make one? I'll vent the tank
back to the overhead cross vent line, routing the header vent line back up
the rear door post. Can I get by with 1/4" aluminum tubing for the header
vent or should I stick with the 3/8" tubing?

Tim
SR060

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[George Coy]

That is exactly the system that I used in building mine. I put a drain on
the bottom of the header tank that came through the belly of the aircraft.
The tank was located just behind the firewall under the floor by the co
pilots right foot. I ran the return line up the windshield brace. I used 1/4
inch for the "return line". I had a return line from the fuel injection
system to the header tank. This would allow running the electric pump to
"purge and cool" the fuel lines for those "hot starts". It is similar to the
system that I have on my Baron and really necessary to get the darn thing
started when the tightly coweled engine has been recently shut down. It also
allows for free circulation of fuel to eliminate any air or vapor bubbles in
the system.
George Coy

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of Tim
Saxton
Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2004 2:32 AM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: SR fuel system questions


After reviewing the archives for fuel system ideas, my plan is to keep the
fuel system simple. The fuel lines will come in from the wing tanks to the
fuel shutoff valves, then run down the rear door posts and tee together
under the floor. Then into the gascolator at low point and then into a
header tank (fuel injected engine). Gascolator and header will be under the
floor. Output of the header is to dual electric fuel pumps. No fuel selector
switch to manage so as long as there is fuel in either wing tank there
shouldn't be any chance of fuel starvation. I'll use the 3/8" supplied
aluminum tubing supplied by MAM.

Any recommendations for gascolator model? ACS has models for less than $70,
including an inexpensive "homebuilder's special" but it is not for use with
auto fuel. Andair and other gascolators are much more expensive, $150 and
more. Is this a case were it's worth spending the extra money?

How big does the header tank have to be, 1-2 gallons? Where can I get a
header tank this size, or is it easier just to make one? I'll vent the tank
back to the overhead cross vent line, routing the header vent line back up
the rear door post. Can I get by with 1/4" aluminum tubing for the header
vent or should I stick with the 3/8" tubing?

Tim
SR060



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[Jean Poirier]

Hello Tim,

If you are building your airplane in Canada, you CAN'T use a fuel filter
instead of a gascolator... if my information is good. Before, the
gascolator was not obligated, but now you should have one at the lowest
point of the fuel system. May be different in the state, but I think it is
probably safier to have one.

Jean
Rebel 747R
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Delcambre" <bdelcambre@cox-internet.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2004 9:30 AM
Subject: Re: SR fuel system questions

The first plane I built didn't have a gascolator, but rather a fuel

filter.

Stoddard-Hamilton provided a high performance Fram fuel filter assy. I
believe the part # is HPG1. I bought one to put on my Moose (not there
yet...). I'm gonna install the filter assy on the firewall, downstream of
the electric pump. It uses a replaceable filter element and it'll flow
enough to feed more engine than you could hang on a Moose. By welding a
steel AN male nipple to the bowl, you can pipe a bowl drain on it. It's
good for all the pressure that the electric pump can provide and actually
removes particulates, as opposed to the gascolator catching boulders.

Just another way to do it.

Bill

----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Saxton" <tim.saxton@shaw.ca>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2004 1:31 AM
Subject: SR fuel system questions

After reviewing the archives for fuel system ideas, my plan is to keep

the

fuel system simple. The fuel lines will come in from the wing tanks to the
fuel shutoff valves, then run down the rear door posts and tee together
under the floor. Then into the gascolator at low point and then into a
header tank (fuel injected engine). Gascolator and header will be under

the

floor. Output of the header is to dual electric fuel pumps. No fuel

selector

switch to manage so as long as there is fuel in either wing tank there
shouldn't be any chance of fuel starvation. I'll use the 3/8" supplied
aluminum tubing supplied by MAM.

Any recommendations for gascolator model? ACS has models for less than

$70, including an inexpensive "homebuilder's special" but it is not for

use

with auto fuel. Andair and other gascolators are much more expensive, $150
and more. Is this a case were it's worth spending the extra money?

How big does the header tank have to be, 1-2 gallons? Where can I get a

header tank this size, or is it easier just to make one? I'll vent the

tank

back to the overhead cross vent line, routing the header vent line back up
the rear door post. Can I get by with 1/4" aluminum tubing for the header
vent or should I stick with the 3/8" tubing?

Tim
SR060

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[Wayne G. O'Shea]

You're right Jean! You >>MUST<< have a gascolator on your Canadian homebuilt
in the lowest point (if possible) to collect water mainly and of course
dirt. There is also a finer screen in the carb inlet (or at least there
better be!) to get the minuet particles.

This is the biggest snag to date on our new ability to import US built
experimentals to Canada (that have logged more than 100 hrs of flight time).
ie: Finding no gascolator on 80% of them! Makes no sense to me considering
they are on most every Certified airplane and are there for a reason. The
gascolator must have one ounce of capacity for every 20 to 25 gallons of
fuel carried on board to be legal in the certified world. Probably makes
good sense in our world as well! Therefore a 60 gallon wing tanked airplane
is alright with a 3 ounce gascolator, but an 80 gallon airplane needs to
move up to the 4 ounce!

And yes as someone mention "Steve's" 3 and 4 ounce units are very nice and
reasonably priced.... and available in both 1/4 and 3/8" NPT ports. The
Andairs are nice as well, and pretty close in money I think so best to see
which one fits your location the best and go with it.

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jean Poirier" <oxyport@globetrotter.net>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2004 11:03 AM
Subject: Re: SR fuel system questions

Hello Tim,

If you are building your airplane in Canada, you CAN'T use a fuel filter
instead of a gascolator... if my information is good. Before, the
gascolator was not obligated, but now you should have one at the lowest
point of the fuel system. May be different in the state, but I think it

is

probably safier to have one.

Jean
Rebel 747R
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Delcambre" <bdelcambre@cox-internet.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2004 9:30 AM
Subject: Re: SR fuel system questions

The first plane I built didn't have a gascolator, but rather a fuel

filter.

Stoddard-Hamilton provided a high performance Fram fuel filter assy. I
believe the part # is HPG1. I bought one to put on my Moose (not there
yet...). I'm gonna install the filter assy on the firewall, downstream

of

the electric pump. It uses a replaceable filter element and it'll flow
enough to feed more engine than you could hang on a Moose. By welding a
steel AN male nipple to the bowl, you can pipe a bowl drain on it. It's
good for all the pressure that the electric pump can provide and

actually

removes particulates, as opposed to the gascolator catching boulders.

Just another way to do it.

Bill

----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Saxton" <tim.saxton@shaw.ca>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2004 1:31 AM
Subject: SR fuel system questions

After reviewing the archives for fuel system ideas, my plan is to keep

the

fuel system simple. The fuel lines will come in from the wing tanks to

the

fuel shutoff valves, then run down the rear door posts and tee together
under the floor. Then into the gascolator at low point and then into a
header tank (fuel injected engine). Gascolator and header will be under

the

floor. Output of the header is to dual electric fuel pumps. No fuel

selector

switch to manage so as long as there is fuel in either wing tank there
shouldn't be any chance of fuel starvation. I'll use the 3/8" supplied
aluminum tubing supplied by MAM.

Any recommendations for gascolator model? ACS has models for less than

$70, including an inexpensive "homebuilder's special" but it is not for

use

with auto fuel. Andair and other gascolators are much more expensive,

$150

and more. Is this a case were it's worth spending the extra money?

How big does the header tank have to be, 1-2 gallons? Where can I get

a

header tank this size, or is it easier just to make one? I'll vent the

tank

back to the overhead cross vent line, routing the header vent line back

up

the rear door post. Can I get by with 1/4" aluminum tubing for the

header

vent or should I stick with the 3/8" tubing?

Tim
SR060

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[klehman]

Well yes but you guys know I love a discussion...
What is the definition of a gascolator?
My position is that my header tank is the low point of the gravity feed
part of my fuel system and it has a water drain. It also has filtered
inputs (fuel socks) into the efi fuel pumps. Therefore I maintain that
it is in fact a gascolator and a far better one. ;) I don't think there
is a rule that says a gascolator can't be homemade. A conventional
aircraft gascolator would be be absolutely pointless for me and provide
more failure points. I guess I'll get to see what the inpector says
eventually...

Then there is the filter question. Guess what - about the only filter
medium that will stop the micron level metal slivers that take out efi
injectors is paper. Such slivers will work their way through metal
screens instead of being permanently trapped. I have seen the rule that
says paper is not allowed in Canada. Except there are at least a few
flying alternate engine machines that were inspected and passed with
paper filters. The builders knew what they were doing and refused to fly
without them. Perhaps the builder did not mentioned the paper element
and the inpector only saw the metal exterior of the automotive efi
filter and deemed it to be a metal filter... ;) In my case I have a
separate automotive efi filter on each pump output because they are
cheap, I like redundancy, and they are - paper. Besides is synthetic
paper actually "paper" ;) ??

Tim I agree that you on the right track with your system. I put a two
gallon pro-sealed header tank in the fuselage because I elected to use
oem submersed pumps in the header. I have seen properly vented tanks as
small as 1 quart mounted forward of the firewall that seem to work fine.
The SDSEFI web site has some photos of one welded up from round tubing
about 3" in diameter. I think a 1/4" vent is fine.

Ken
not flying yet!

You're right Jean! You >>MUST<< have a gascolator on your Canadian homebuilt
in the lowest point (if possible) to collect water mainly and of course
dirt. There is also a finer screen in the carb inlet (or at least there
better be!) to get the minuet particles.
snip

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[Wayne G. O'Shea]

Ken, NOTHING wrong with a homemade "gascolator"...provided it does what a
gascolator is supposed to do. That is "separate water from the fuel and
"drops" dirt from the system so pumps don't have to deal with it". That is a
quote from Jamie Alexandre - Chief MDRA Ontario Region.

His hand outs also show a picture of a plastic (I assume x-linked PE)
Mastercraft weed spray tank upright in a tube fuselage and his question to
all of us was "is this okay as a gascolator"? We all laughed thinking how
obviously >NOT< can you be and he then said "what's wrong with it...it
separates water and screens the fuel". Guess considering it's size it was
also working as a header tank..but he never got into the specifics other
than "it was fine and he had no problem with it".

As for filters and other items specific to your conversion you know what
your engine needs....if the inspector disagrees it's not the end of the
world. Don't get in a pissing match with him..... so he starts looking for
other things out of spite! When he is gone, sign the back of the snag sheet
that "even though he disagrees with your filter/gascolator installation the
following are the reasons you feel it is fine as is and list them out in a
reasonable manner. It will then go through Jamie (in Ontario) and if he
doesn't accept your reasoning then your file will get handed over to Wayne
Juniper (in Ontario) for a TC ruling.

Definitely going to delay your flight permit if this happens, but if you
know that you're right...stand up for it and make it easier for the next guy
down the flight line!

Cheers,
Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: <klehman@albedo.net>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2004 8:02 PM
Subject: Re: SR fuel system questions

Well yes but you guys know I love a discussion...
What is the definition of a gascolator?
My position is that my header tank is the low point of the gravity feed
part of my fuel system and it has a water drain. It also has filtered
inputs (fuel socks) into the efi fuel pumps. Therefore I maintain that
it is in fact a gascolator and a far better one. ;) I don't think there
is a rule that says a gascolator can't be homemade. A conventional
aircraft gascolator would be be absolutely pointless for me and provide
more failure points. I guess I'll get to see what the inpector says
eventually...

Then there is the filter question. Guess what - about the only filter
medium that will stop the micron level metal slivers that take out efi
injectors is paper. Such slivers will work their way through metal
screens instead of being permanently trapped. I have seen the rule that
says paper is not allowed in Canada. Except there are at least a few
flying alternate engine machines that were inspected and passed with
paper filters. The builders knew what they were doing and refused to fly
without them. Perhaps the builder did not mentioned the paper element
and the inpector only saw the metal exterior of the automotive efi
filter and deemed it to be a metal filter... ;) In my case I have a
separate automotive efi filter on each pump output because they are
cheap, I like redundancy, and they are - paper. Besides is synthetic
paper actually "paper" ;) ??

Tim I agree that you on the right track with your system. I put a two
gallon pro-sealed header tank in the fuselage because I elected to use
oem submersed pumps in the header. I have seen properly vented tanks as
small as 1 quart mounted forward of the firewall that seem to work fine.
The SDSEFI web site has some photos of one welded up from round tubing
about 3" in diameter. I think a 1/4" vent is fine.

Ken
not flying yet!

You're right Jean! You >>MUST<< have a gascolator on your Canadian

homebuilt

in the lowest point (if possible) to collect water mainly and of course
dirt. There is also a finer screen in the carb inlet (or at least there
better be!) to get the minuet particles.
snip

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