M14 air system

[Bill Delcambre]

Hi Don,

Thanks for the firewall pics. I've found such to be of as much, or
more, help than the book. Only question that I have relates to purging the
condensate from your air tank. With the valve on top, how do you plan to
accomplish the purge cycle? You could install a dip-tube in the base of
your valve. Or?????
One more hint about the cylinder valve. The Sherwood (or Superior)valve
on the cylinder has a seat on the bottom AND on the top of the stroke. If
you're going to be using the downstream ball valve to isolate the tank from
the system, be sure to open the cylinder valve fully, until you encounter
resistance at the fully opened position. This should prevent any leaks
through the valve stem. It's not uncommon to see leaks past the valve stem
when partially opened.
Thanks again for the pics!

Bill




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[Bill Delcambre]

Freezing condensate? Hmmm. One more time, I'm thinking in the wrong mode.
Down here, in the 90% humidity / warm Wx, freezing condensate just never
entered my mind. See your point, though. I'll need to snot my tank after
each flight cause down here, we breath a pretty wet mix. You might drop by
a local machine shop and beg a cup of 'water soluble cutting oil' to put in
the cylinder. Sounds like a contradiction in terms, but it prevents
corrosion and avoids problems related to moisture in the system. This,
along with a bit of antifreeze (glycerin) should work great.

Bill


----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Boardman" <dboardm3@twcny.rr.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2003 9:28 AM
Subject: Re: M14 air system

Hi Bill,

Only question that I have relates to purging the
condensate from your air tank. With the valve on top, how do you plan

to

accomplish the purge cycle? You could install a dip-tube in the base of
your valve. Or?????

The valve that Kevin Kimball has in the system for purging the

condensation

is of little help IMHO when it comes to water on the tank side of the one
way check valve which is located after the purge valve. I see this valve
more useful to let the compressor freewheel once the tank is at full
pressure. Not sure if this is necessary as the Yak guys seem to be split

on

whether it is of any benefit. Putting the bottle upside down seems to set
you up for condensation/water freezing in the outlet of the bottle.

At this point we have elected to keep the system simple when it comes to
filters/drains etc. Our current plan is to remove the bottle at annual

time

or as determined by experience and purge the bottle. The bottle is easily
removed. It's a tall bottle and should be able to handle some water form
condensation in the bottom. George Coy says the Yak guys put a mixture of
glycerin and ?... forget at the moment but will check back on what they

use.

Plan B place a valve in the bottom of the bottle which could be opened
periodically locally or remotely. Time will tell.

It's not uncommon to see leaks past the valve stem
when partially opened.

I thought this was the case thanks for the tip.

Regards,
Don B.

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[Scott & Leere' Aldrich]

Kevin, someone from the model 12 list mentioned going to a smaller line on
the dump valve so the compressor isn't completely unloaded. Idea was that a
little back pressure kept the rings sealed on the compressor. Thoughts?
I suspect with thousands of hours on your system already your compressors
are fine.

Scott
Moose 174

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
KJKimball@aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2003 11:17 AM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: M14 air system


Don, Bill and group,

Here are a few thoughts on our air system and how it has performed in the
dozens of airplanes using it at this time.

As some of you may know, the system we sell includes a compressor
unload/byapass valve. The proper operation of the system requires the pilot
to engage
this valve soon after the system has reached full pressure of 800-850 psi.
In
doing so, all air pumped by the engine driven compressor will be diverted
overboard and not into the system. As it takes only a few minutes to
recharge the
system, about the same time it takes to warm up the oil for run up, the
bypass
valve can be activated before or shortly after take off and remain in this
state until the next start. This results in a mere handful of minutes worth
of
air being sent past the one way valve and into the tank and manifold system.
Nearly zero opportunity for moisture in the tank.

If you chose to not use the bypass unload valve as intended, you will get a
greater amount of moisture into the tank. Standard Yak and Sukhoi systems
do
not incorporate a bypass valve as we have and because of this, the
compressor
is sending air and moisture into the tank the entire time the engine is
running. Therefore, they use a moisture trap, AKA snot pot, to collect this
goo
which is manually opened after each flight to splat it out on the ground and
on
your foot if you stand in the wrong spot.

We have several thousand flight ours on our air systems at this point. Our
first model 12 has just finished it's 4th annual inspection and 5th year of
flying. Each annual, the tank has been removed and checked for debris and
moisture. The airplane lives in Atlanta now but was born here in FL. No
measurable
amount of moisture has ever been found in the tank.

As with many types of machinery, airplanes are made up of systems. Each of
these systems has a design intent and a specific usage. Same is true for
tools. A screwdriver used as a chisel will not last as long as one used
properly.
In the case of our air system and it's use in the moose, builders should not
confuse the components in Russian or Romanian systems with those in our
system. There are functionally equivalent parts in each of these systems.
However,
there are items that are not the same. Know and understand exactly how the
system works and is to be used before adding additional components to it.

I monitor this list along with our model 12 list and others. Feel free to
email, call, or post a question here on any of the items we offer and I will
be
more than happy to help you in any way I am able.

Sincerely,

Kevin Kimball, VP Engineering
Jim Kimball Enterprises, Inc.
PO Box 849, 5354 Cemetery Rd.
Zellwood, FL 32798
407-889-3451 phone
407-889-7168 fax
www.jimkimballenterprises.com
www.pittsmodel12.com



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[Don Boardman]

Hi Bill,

Only question that I have relates to purging the
condensate from your air tank. With the valve on top, how do you plan to
accomplish the purge cycle? You could install a dip-tube in the base of
your valve. Or?????

The valve that Kevin Kimball has in the system for purging the condensation
is of little help IMHO when it comes to water on the tank side of the one
way check valve which is located after the purge valve. I see this valve
more useful to let the compressor freewheel once the tank is at full
pressure. Not sure if this is necessary as the Yak guys seem to be split on
whether it is of any benefit. Putting the bottle upside down seems to set
you up for condensation/water freezing in the outlet of the bottle.

At this point we have elected to keep the system simple when it comes to
filters/drains etc. Our current plan is to remove the bottle at annual time
or as determined by experience and purge the bottle. The bottle is easily
removed. It's a tall bottle and should be able to handle some water form
condensation in the bottom. George Coy says the Yak guys put a mixture of
glycerin and ?... forget at the moment but will check back on what they use.
Plan B place a valve in the bottom of the bottle which could be opened
periodically locally or remotely. Time will tell.

It's not uncommon to see leaks past the valve stem
when partially opened.

I thought this was the case thanks for the tip.

Regards,
Don B.



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[KJKimball]

Don, Bill and group,

Here are a few thoughts on our air system and how it has performed in the
dozens of airplanes using it at this time.

As some of you may know, the system we sell includes a compressor
unload/byapass valve. The proper operation of the system requires the pilot to engage
this valve soon after the system has reached full pressure of 800-850 psi. In
doing so, all air pumped by the engine driven compressor will be diverted
overboard and not into the system. As it takes only a few minutes to recharge the
system, about the same time it takes to warm up the oil for run up, the bypass
valve can be activated before or shortly after take off and remain in this
state until the next start. This results in a mere handful of minutes worth of
air being sent past the one way valve and into the tank and manifold system.
Nearly zero opportunity for moisture in the tank.

If you chose to not use the bypass unload valve as intended, you will get a
greater amount of moisture into the tank. Standard Yak and Sukhoi systems do
not incorporate a bypass valve as we have and because of this, the compressor
is sending air and moisture into the tank the entire time the engine is
running. Therefore, they use a moisture trap, AKA snot pot, to collect this goo
which is manually opened after each flight to splat it out on the ground and on
your foot if you stand in the wrong spot.

We have several thousand flight ours on our air systems at this point. Our
first model 12 has just finished it's 4th annual inspection and 5th year of
flying. Each annual, the tank has been removed and checked for debris and
moisture. The airplane lives in Atlanta now but was born here in FL. No measurable
amount of moisture has ever been found in the tank.

As with many types of machinery, airplanes are made up of systems. Each of
these systems has a design intent and a specific usage. Same is true for
tools. A screwdriver used as a chisel will not last as long as one used properly.
In the case of our air system and it's use in the moose, builders should not
confuse the components in Russian or Romanian systems with those in our
system. There are functionally equivalent parts in each of these systems. However,
there are items that are not the same. Know and understand exactly how the
system works and is to be used before adding additional components to it.

I monitor this list along with our model 12 list and others. Feel free to
email, call, or post a question here on any of the items we offer and I will be
more than happy to help you in any way I am able.

Sincerely,

Kevin Kimball, VP Engineering
Jim Kimball Enterprises, Inc.
PO Box 849, 5354 Cemetery Rd.
Zellwood, FL 32798
407-889-3451 phone
407-889-7168 fax
www.jimkimballenterprises.com
www.pittsmodel12.com



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[Bill Delcambre]

Thanks Kevin,

Your system seems to be very well thought out. Thanks for your
clarification of the issue and for all your sharing with this group. It's
really great to have a voice of experience contributing as you do.

Happy Thanksgiving, everyone!

Bill Delcambre

---- Original Message -----
From: <KJKimball@aol.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2003 12:16 PM
Subject: Re: M14 air system

Don, Bill and group,

Here are a few thoughts on our air system and how it has performed in the
dozens of airplanes using it at this time.

As some of you may know, the system we sell includes a compressor
unload/byapass valve. The proper operation of the system requires the

pilot to engage

this valve soon after the system has reached full pressure of 800-850 psi.

In

doing so, all air pumped by the engine driven compressor will be diverted
overboard and not into the system. As it takes only a few minutes to

recharge the

system, about the same time it takes to warm up the oil for run up, the

bypass

valve can be activated before or shortly after take off and remain in this
state until the next start. This results in a mere handful of minutes

worth of

air being sent past the one way valve and into the tank and manifold

system.

Nearly zero opportunity for moisture in the tank.

If you chose to not use the bypass unload valve as intended, you will get

a

greater amount of moisture into the tank. Standard Yak and Sukhoi systems

do

not incorporate a bypass valve as we have and because of this, the

compressor

is sending air and moisture into the tank the entire time the engine is
running. Therefore, they use a moisture trap, AKA snot pot, to collect

this goo

which is manually opened after each flight to splat it out on the ground

and on

your foot if you stand in the wrong spot.

We have several thousand flight ours on our air systems at this point.

Our

first model 12 has just finished it's 4th annual inspection and 5th year

of

flying. Each annual, the tank has been removed and checked for debris and
moisture. The airplane lives in Atlanta now but was born here in FL. No

measurable

amount of moisture has ever been found in the tank.

As with many types of machinery, airplanes are made up of systems. Each

of

these systems has a design intent and a specific usage. Same is true for
tools. A screwdriver used as a chisel will not last as long as one used

properly.

In the case of our air system and it's use in the moose, builders should

not

confuse the components in Russian or Romanian systems with those in our
system. There are functionally equivalent parts in each of these systems.

However,

there are items that are not the same. Know and understand exactly how

the

system works and is to be used before adding additional components to it.

I monitor this list along with our model 12 list and others. Feel free to
email, call, or post a question here on any of the items we offer and I

will be

more than happy to help you in any way I am able.

Sincerely,

Kevin Kimball, VP Engineering
Jim Kimball Enterprises, Inc.
PO Box 849, 5354 Cemetery Rd.
Zellwood, FL 32798
407-889-3451 phone
407-889-7168 fax
www.jimkimballenterprises.com
www.pittsmodel12.com

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[KJKimball]

Scott,

I know there was some talk about a restriction in the dump line but we have
not done it here. I would suspect that it would take a hole down to about .020
or .040" to really restrict the air to a great degree. We have one owner who
restricted the start outlet air to a .040" hole to see just how small an
amount of air would be needed to start the system thinking he might save some air.
The prop turned just as fast and he got the same number of start tries to an
empty tank with the small hole or the standard #4 fitting I.D. hole. So, I
would think you would need a hole so small that you might stand a chance of
having it plug up from the goo and render the bypass/unload line useless.

Sincerely,

Kevin Kimball, VP Engineering
Jim Kimball Enterprises, Inc.
PO Box 849, 5354 Cemetery Rd.
Zellwood, FL 32798
407-889-3451 phone
407-889-7168 fax
<A HREF="www.jimkimballenterprises.com">www.jimkimballenterprises.com</A>
<A HREF="www.pittsmodel12.com">www.pittsmodel12.com</A>





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