Elevator Trim - Was Rebel Flaperon Control System

[Walter Klatt]

Wow, Bobp, you had a second flutter incident on your
Rambles!!?? You told us out west here about the one
that happened over Manitoba. That was scary enough.

This additional talk about runaway trim failure also
has me wondering whether it is even worth having an
electric elevator trim. I never adjust trim on mine in
flight anyway, as it seems to have the same control
pressure whether in climb, cruise or any throttle
setting. A ground adjustable one would work fine. The
only possible reason would be as a back-up to your
elevator cable if it broke.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com
[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of Bob
Patterson
Sent: Saturday, September 13, 2003 7:54 AM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Rebel Flaperon Control System



Hi Ken !

I'd appreciate it if you could find
that bulletin - and
a web address for it, if you have it.

I'll be talking about this, and a
couple of other areas,
at the Builders Meeting on Sunday - these
are NOT "nice-to-do" things,
they are ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY !!! (still
shaking !! :-( )

Bruce only heard about the
partially-broken (by a stone
on takeoff) trim tab horn - the
'field-repaired' one tore completely off
over New Brunswick, and I payed an
unscheduled visit to Mr. McCain's
private runway !! Sure glad it was close !

Thanks ! See you all on Sunday !


.....bobp

--------------------------------orig.--------
---------------------
At 10:56 PM 9/12/03 -0400, you wrote:

Bruce
There is indeed a MAM bulletin to double

the trim horn on all 0-320 trim

tabs and also recommending it on all Rebels

regardless of engine. I can

look it up but I've had it for a few years

I believe.

Roger
FWIW I used angle brackets at the rear of

those channels to tie into the

bulkhead. Same as on the ends of all the

floor channels. I think that is

what they mean by gussets. You are correct

though that it is a busy

area. There is a doubler there on the

bulkhead over the cutout in the

top of the bulkhead. I replaced that

doubler over the cutout on the

bulkhead with a much larger doubler. Then I

arranged for some of the

same rivets to fasten both the doubler and

the angle brackets. If I

remember correctly, you should also offset

the rivets in the doubled

bulkhead so that they don't interfere with

each other in the gap between

the doubled bulkheads. ie. when installing

those doublers don't drill

straight through both bulkheads as the

rivet from the rear would then

interfere with the rivet from the front.
Ken

Legeorgen@aol.com wrote:

Wayne,

The newer manuals (CD) DO show this

channel between bulkheads now as a
double

channel. I looked at this last year and

pondered doubling mine but
decided it

was not worth it.

I do remember Bobp at Arlington

mentioning he lost his electric trim tap
horn

in flight and had a flutter experience.

On landing it was noticed the single

horn on the trim tap (now a double trim

tap on newer models) had failed. I

would double this area if anyone hasn't yet.

Bruce 357R

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[Bob Patterson]

Hi Walter !

Yep ! The one at Hartney happened at only a few hundred
feet up, and we got down quickly - the one in New Brunswick was
at 4,000 ft., and I was lucky to get down at all !! The first one
was still attached to a bit of flexing skin - the second time,
all of the rivets pulled right out... in straight & level flight.
Some very mild turbulence, a thump, and the shaking started.

I tried moving the trim to full up and down, as last time,
but this time it had no effect - since the trim tab was now
completely free ! Reducing power and slowing only made things
much worse, so I was stuck at 2,400 rpm and over 120 mph, giving
only about 200 fpm descent... with the stick moving back & forward
about 6 to 8 inches, several times per second !

My fault, I guess, as I did the field repair by positioning
the horn exactly as the original - now know that this was not the
correct place for it, AND it should be doubled !! Will now replace
the patch with a larger, thicker one, running up the front of the trim tab,
and with new horns from MAM, doubled, as per the SB., with the
front horn rivet going through the spar. What a scare !
The flutter was severe enough that it ripped right through the
extra tab added to the rudder tail post/ top bulkhead joint as
per the recent (3 large rivets) bulletin, so that had to be replaced also.
(The original was not .032) Think I will have to drill out
the elevator support horns & add a bushing from MAM, also.

This flutter has also caused considerable wear to the
elevator support horns - there was considerable end play in the
elevators due to a lack of sufficient nylon washers, causing a
sawing motion. Think I will have to drill out the elevator support horns
& add a bushing from MAM, also. I would advise everyone to be sure
there's NO side play in the elevators - add nylon washers as required !!
This applies also to the rudder, and the ailerons !!!!!

The end play in the elevators contributed to the strength
(magnitude) of the flutter, I believe.

I wouldn't worry about runaway trim - as you know, we
hardly ever <touch> the trim on a Rebel !! In any case, you
could fly it with full deflection. The case mentioned was
a Super Rebel/Moose, with a very powerful trim tab. That might
prove impossible to control at full deflection ... ??
Those who think you wouldn't notice in time to stop it - Yes you
would !! I had a passenger who accidentally pressed the trim button
on the stick (NOT a great position for it !) with his camera -
and I immediately started looking for the reason for the trim
change, with my hand moving toward the master breaker !!!
Maybe this is because I have always flown every Murphy aircraft
"hands-off" in cruise - so any change is immediately noticed !

.....bobp

------------------------------orig.-----------------------------------
At 06:18 PM 9/16/03 -0700, you wrote:

Wow, Bobp, you had a second flutter incident on your
Rambles!!?? You told us out west here about the one
that happened over Manitoba. That was scary enough.

This additional talk about runaway trim failure also
has me wondering whether it is even worth having an
electric elevator trim. I never adjust trim on mine in
flight anyway, as it seems to have the same control
pressure whether in climb, cruise or any throttle
setting. A ground adjustable one would work fine. The
only possible reason would be as a back-up to your
elevator cable if it broke.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com
[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of Bob
Patterson
Sent: Saturday, September 13, 2003 7:54 AM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Rebel Flaperon Control System



Hi Ken !

I'd appreciate it if you could find
that bulletin - and
a web address for it, if you have it.

I'll be talking about this, and a
couple of other areas,
at the Builders Meeting on Sunday - these
are NOT "nice-to-do" things,
they are ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY !!! (still
shaking !! :-( )

Bruce only heard about the
partially-broken (by a stone
on takeoff) trim tab horn - the
'field-repaired' one tore completely off
over New Brunswick, and I payed an
unscheduled visit to Mr. McCain's
private runway !! Sure glad it was close !

Thanks ! See you all on Sunday !


.....bobp

--------------------------------orig.--------

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[Walter Klatt]

Well, sure glad to hear you're alive after that.

As it happens, I was on our now annual Wings Over
Canada trip up the coast here this past weekend. Darryl
from MAM was along as well, and we talked about this
problem and your first incident. He was quite surprised
and alarmed that everyone didn't know about this AD, as
apparently this was known many years ago. So I would
expect something to appear on their website soon.

And BTW, this is one trip you should try for once you
get yours on floats. This year, the MAM planes
outnumbered the Cessnas. We could make this an almost
all Murphy event.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com
[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of Bob
Patterson
Sent: Thursday, September 18, 2003 10:13 AM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: Elevator Trim - Was Rebel
Flaperon Control System



Hi Walter !

Yep ! The one at Hartney happened
at only a few hundred
feet up, and we got down quickly - the one
in New Brunswick was
at 4,000 ft., and I was lucky to get down at
all !! The first one
was still attached to a bit of flexing skin
- the second time,
all of the rivets pulled right out... in
straight & level flight.
Some very mild turbulence, a thump, and the
shaking started.

I tried moving the trim to full up
and down, as last time,
but this time it had no effect - since the
trim tab was now
completely free ! Reducing power and
slowing only made things
much worse, so I was stuck at 2,400 rpm and
over 120 mph, giving
only about 200 fpm descent... with the stick
moving back & forward
about 6 to 8 inches, several times per second !

My fault, I guess, as I did the
field repair by positioning
the horn exactly as the original - now know
that this was not the
correct place for it, AND it should be
doubled !! Will now replace
the patch with a larger, thicker one,
running up the front of the trim tab,
and with new horns from MAM, doubled, as per
the SB., with the
front horn rivet going through the spar.
What a scare !
The flutter was severe enough that it ripped
right through the
extra tab added to the rudder tail post/ top
bulkhead joint as
per the recent (3 large rivets) bulletin, so
that had to be replaced also.
(The original was not .032) Think I will
have to drill out
the elevator support horns & add a bushing
from MAM, also.

This flutter has also caused
considerable wear to the
elevator support horns - there was
considerable end play in the
elevators due to a lack of sufficient nylon
washers, causing a
sawing motion. Think I will have to drill
out the elevator support horns
& add a bushing from MAM, also. I would
advise everyone to be sure
there's NO side play in the elevators - add
nylon washers as required !!
This applies also to the rudder, and the
ailerons !!!!!

The end play in the elevators
contributed to the strength
(magnitude) of the flutter, I believe.

I wouldn't worry about runaway trim
- as you know, we
hardly ever <touch> the trim on a Rebel !!
In any case, you
could fly it with full deflection. The case
mentioned was
a Super Rebel/Moose, with a very powerful
trim tab. That might
prove impossible to control at full deflection ... ??
Those who think you wouldn't notice in time
to stop it - Yes you
would !! I had a passenger who accidentally
pressed the trim button
on the stick (NOT a great position for it !)
with his camera -
and I immediately started looking for the
reason for the trim
change, with my hand moving toward the
master breaker !!!
Maybe this is because I have always flown
every Murphy aircraft
"hands-off" in cruise - so any change is
immediately noticed !

.....bobp

------------------------------orig.----------
-------------------------
At 06:18 PM 9/16/03 -0700, you wrote:

Wow, Bobp, you had a second flutter incident on your
Rambles!!?? You told us out west here about the one
that happened over Manitoba. That was scary enough.

This additional talk about runaway trim failure also
has me wondering whether it is even worth having an
electric elevator trim. I never adjust trim

on mine in

flight anyway, as it seems to have the same control
pressure whether in climb, cruise or any throttle
setting. A ground adjustable one would work

fine. The

only possible reason would be as a back-up to your
elevator cable if it broke.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com
[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of Bob
Patterson
Sent: Saturday, September 13, 2003 7:54 AM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Rebel Flaperon Control System



Hi Ken !

I'd appreciate it if you could find
that bulletin - and
a web address for it, if you have it.

I'll be talking about this, and a
couple of other areas,
at the Builders Meeting on Sunday - these
are NOT "nice-to-do" things,
they are ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY !!! (still
shaking !! :-( )

Bruce only heard about the
partially-broken (by a stone
on takeoff) trim tab horn - the
'field-repaired' one tore completely off
over New Brunswick, and I payed an
unscheduled visit to Mr. McCain's
private runway !! Sure glad it was close !

Thanks ! See you all on Sunday !


.....bobp

--------------------------------orig.--------

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[Walter Klatt]

Nope, not this time, but we sure had fun again. We'll
have to see what they decide to put on the show. I
think Al Paxhia will be the star this time.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com
[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of Bob
Patterson
Sent: Thursday, September 18, 2003 7:39 PM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: Elevator Trim - Was Rebel
Flaperon Control System



Hi Walter !

That sure sounds like a great trip
!! Did you get
the biggest fish again ?? !! ;-) :-)

One of these years .....

Hope they got lots of good film
again - the last one
was a GREAT Murphy commercial ! :-)

......bobp

-------------------------------orig.---------
-----------------
At 05:09 PM 9/18/03 -0700, you wrote:

Well, sure glad to hear you're alive after that.

As it happens, I was on our now annual Wings Over
Canada trip up the coast here this past

weekend. Darryl

from MAM was along as well, and we talked about this
problem and your first incident. He was

quite surprised

and alarmed that everyone didn't know about

this AD, as

apparently this was known many years ago. So I would
expect something to appear on their website soon.

And BTW, this is one trip you should try

for once you

get yours on floats. This year, the MAM planes
outnumbered the Cessnas. We could make this

an almost

all Murphy event.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com
[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of Bob
Patterson
Sent: Thursday, September 18, 2003 10:13 AM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: Elevator Trim - Was Rebel
Flaperon Control System



Hi Walter !

Yep ! The one at Hartney happened
at only a few hundred
feet up, and we got down quickly - the one
in New Brunswick was
at 4,000 ft., and I was lucky to get down at
all !! The first one
was still attached to a bit of flexing skin
- the second time,
all of the rivets pulled right out... in
straight & level flight.
Some very mild turbulence, a thump, and the
shaking started.

I tried moving the trim to full up
and down, as last time,
but this time it had no effect - since the
trim tab was now
completely free ! Reducing power and
slowing only made things
much worse, so I was stuck at 2,400 rpm and
over 120 mph, giving
only about 200 fpm descent... with the stick
moving back & forward
about 6 to 8 inches, several times per second !

My fault, I guess, as I did the
field repair by positioning
the horn exactly as the original - now know
that this was not the
correct place for it, AND it should be
doubled !! Will now replace
the patch with a larger, thicker one,
running up the front of the trim tab,
and with new horns from MAM, doubled, as per
the SB., with the
front horn rivet going through the spar.
What a scare !
The flutter was severe enough that it ripped
right through the
extra tab added to the rudder tail post/ top
bulkhead joint as
per the recent (3 large rivets) bulletin, so
that had to be replaced also.
(The original was not .032) Think I will
have to drill out
the elevator support horns & add a bushing
from MAM, also.

This flutter has also caused
considerable wear to the
elevator support horns - there was
considerable end play in the
elevators due to a lack of sufficient nylon
washers, causing a
sawing motion. Think I will have to drill
out the elevator support horns
& add a bushing from MAM, also. I would
advise everyone to be sure
there's NO side play in the elevators - add
nylon washers as required !!
This applies also to the rudder, and the
ailerons !!!!!

The end play in the elevators
contributed to the strength
(magnitude) of the flutter, I believe.

I wouldn't worry about runaway trim
- as you know, we
hardly ever <touch> the trim on a Rebel !!
In any case, you
could fly it with full deflection. The case
mentioned was
a Super Rebel/Moose, with a very powerful
trim tab. That might
prove impossible to control at full

deflection ... ??

Those who think you wouldn't notice in time
to stop it - Yes you
would !! I had a passenger who accidentally
pressed the trim button
on the stick (NOT a great position for it !)
with his camera -
and I immediately started looking for the
reason for the trim
change, with my hand moving toward the
master breaker !!!
Maybe this is because I have always flown
every Murphy aircraft
"hands-off" in cruise - so any change is
immediately noticed !

.....bobp

------------------------------orig.----------
-------------------------
At 06:18 PM 9/16/03 -0700, you wrote:

incident on your

about the one

scary enough.

failure also

worth having an

on mine in

same control

fine. The

back-up to your

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[Bob Patterson]

Hi Walter !

That sure sounds like a great trip !! Did you get
the biggest fish again ?? !! ;-) :-)

One of these years .....

Hope they got lots of good film again - the last one
was a GREAT Murphy commercial ! :-)

......bobp

-------------------------------orig.--------------------------
At 05:09 PM 9/18/03 -0700, you wrote:

Well, sure glad to hear you're alive after that.

As it happens, I was on our now annual Wings Over
Canada trip up the coast here this past weekend. Darryl
from MAM was along as well, and we talked about this
problem and your first incident. He was quite surprised
and alarmed that everyone didn't know about this AD, as
apparently this was known many years ago. So I would
expect something to appear on their website soon.

And BTW, this is one trip you should try for once you
get yours on floats. This year, the MAM planes
outnumbered the Cessnas. We could make this an almost
all Murphy event.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com
[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of Bob
Patterson
Sent: Thursday, September 18, 2003 10:13 AM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: Elevator Trim - Was Rebel
Flaperon Control System



Hi Walter !

Yep ! The one at Hartney happened
at only a few hundred
feet up, and we got down quickly - the one
in New Brunswick was
at 4,000 ft., and I was lucky to get down at
all !! The first one
was still attached to a bit of flexing skin
- the second time,
all of the rivets pulled right out... in
straight & level flight.
Some very mild turbulence, a thump, and the
shaking started.

I tried moving the trim to full up
and down, as last time,
but this time it had no effect - since the
trim tab was now
completely free ! Reducing power and
slowing only made things
much worse, so I was stuck at 2,400 rpm and
over 120 mph, giving
only about 200 fpm descent... with the stick
moving back & forward
about 6 to 8 inches, several times per second !

My fault, I guess, as I did the
field repair by positioning
the horn exactly as the original - now know
that this was not the
correct place for it, AND it should be
doubled !! Will now replace
the patch with a larger, thicker one,
running up the front of the trim tab,
and with new horns from MAM, doubled, as per
the SB., with the
front horn rivet going through the spar.
What a scare !
The flutter was severe enough that it ripped
right through the
extra tab added to the rudder tail post/ top
bulkhead joint as
per the recent (3 large rivets) bulletin, so
that had to be replaced also.
(The original was not .032) Think I will
have to drill out
the elevator support horns & add a bushing
from MAM, also.

This flutter has also caused
considerable wear to the
elevator support horns - there was
considerable end play in the
elevators due to a lack of sufficient nylon
washers, causing a
sawing motion. Think I will have to drill
out the elevator support horns
& add a bushing from MAM, also. I would
advise everyone to be sure
there's NO side play in the elevators - add
nylon washers as required !!
This applies also to the rudder, and the
ailerons !!!!!

The end play in the elevators
contributed to the strength
(magnitude) of the flutter, I believe.

I wouldn't worry about runaway trim
- as you know, we
hardly ever <touch> the trim on a Rebel !!
In any case, you
could fly it with full deflection. The case
mentioned was
a Super Rebel/Moose, with a very powerful
trim tab. That might
prove impossible to control at full deflection ... ??
Those who think you wouldn't notice in time
to stop it - Yes you
would !! I had a passenger who accidentally
pressed the trim button
on the stick (NOT a great position for it !)
with his camera -
and I immediately started looking for the
reason for the trim
change, with my hand moving toward the
master breaker !!!
Maybe this is because I have always flown
every Murphy aircraft
"hands-off" in cruise - so any change is
immediately noticed !

.....bobp

------------------------------orig.----------
-------------------------
At 06:18 PM 9/16/03 -0700, you wrote:

Wow, Bobp, you had a second flutter incident on your
Rambles!!?? You told us out west here about the one
that happened over Manitoba. That was scary enough.

This additional talk about runaway trim failure also
has me wondering whether it is even worth having an
electric elevator trim. I never adjust trim

on mine in

flight anyway, as it seems to have the same control
pressure whether in climb, cruise or any throttle
setting. A ground adjustable one would work

fine. The

only possible reason would be as a back-up to your
elevator cable if it broke.

Walter

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[David Ricker]

Bob & Walter

Hope Darryl looks into the Elite and SR versions as well as by the sounds of it
there are some questions about their longevity too.

While we are talking about getting the word out on bulletins, at one point we
had one on the Elite from MAM (don't recall which) that MAM couldn't find in
their records. They asked us to FAX them a copy.........hope they do a
thorough job and make sure ALL the bulletins get posted.

Cheers

Dave
Elite583.cjb.net

Walter Klatt wrote:

Well, sure glad to hear you're alive after that.

As it happens, I was on our now annual Wings Over
Canada trip up the coast here this past weekend. Darryl
from MAM was along as well, and we talked about this
problem and your first incident. He was quite surprised
and alarmed that everyone didn't know about this AD, as
apparently this was known many years ago. So I would
expect something to appear on their website soon.

And BTW, this is one trip you should try for once you
get yours on floats. This year, the MAM planes
outnumbered the Cessnas. We could make this an almost
all Murphy event.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com
[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of Bob
Patterson
Sent: Thursday, September 18, 2003 10:13 AM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: Elevator Trim - Was Rebel
Flaperon Control System



Hi Walter !

Yep ! The one at Hartney happened
at only a few hundred
feet up, and we got down quickly - the one
in New Brunswick was
at 4,000 ft., and I was lucky to get down at
all !! The first one
was still attached to a bit of flexing skin
- the second time,
all of the rivets pulled right out... in
straight & level flight.
Some very mild turbulence, a thump, and the
shaking started.

I tried moving the trim to full up
and down, as last time,
but this time it had no effect - since the
trim tab was now
completely free ! Reducing power and
slowing only made things
much worse, so I was stuck at 2,400 rpm and
over 120 mph, giving
only about 200 fpm descent... with the stick
moving back & forward
about 6 to 8 inches, several times per second !

My fault, I guess, as I did the
field repair by positioning
the horn exactly as the original - now know
that this was not the
correct place for it, AND it should be
doubled !! Will now replace
the patch with a larger, thicker one,
running up the front of the trim tab,
and with new horns from MAM, doubled, as per
the SB., with the
front horn rivet going through the spar.
What a scare !
The flutter was severe enough that it ripped
right through the
extra tab added to the rudder tail post/ top
bulkhead joint as
per the recent (3 large rivets) bulletin, so
that had to be replaced also.
(The original was not .032) Think I will
have to drill out
the elevator support horns & add a bushing
from MAM, also.

This flutter has also caused
considerable wear to the
elevator support horns - there was
considerable end play in the
elevators due to a lack of sufficient nylon
washers, causing a
sawing motion. Think I will have to drill
out the elevator support horns
& add a bushing from MAM, also. I would
advise everyone to be sure
there's NO side play in the elevators - add
nylon washers as required !!
This applies also to the rudder, and the
ailerons !!!!!

The end play in the elevators
contributed to the strength
(magnitude) of the flutter, I believe.

I wouldn't worry about runaway trim
- as you know, we
hardly ever <touch> the trim on a Rebel !!
In any case, you
could fly it with full deflection. The case
mentioned was
a Super Rebel/Moose, with a very powerful
trim tab. That might
prove impossible to control at full deflection ... ??
Those who think you wouldn't notice in time
to stop it - Yes you
would !! I had a passenger who accidentally
pressed the trim button
on the stick (NOT a great position for it !)
with his camera -
and I immediately started looking for the
reason for the trim
change, with my hand moving toward the
master breaker !!!
Maybe this is because I have always flown
every Murphy aircraft
"hands-off" in cruise - so any change is
immediately noticed !

.....bobp

------------------------------orig.----------
-------------------------
At 06:18 PM 9/16/03 -0700, you wrote:

Wow, Bobp, you had a second flutter incident on your
Rambles!!?? You told us out west here about the one
that happened over Manitoba. That was scary enough.

This additional talk about runaway trim failure also
has me wondering whether it is even worth having an
electric elevator trim. I never adjust trim

on mine in

flight anyway, as it seems to have the same control
pressure whether in climb, cruise or any throttle
setting. A ground adjustable one would work

fine. The

only possible reason would be as a back-up to your
elevator cable if it broke.

Walter

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Fall River, Nova Scotia
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