Split flap question

[SWSLOANLK]

Hi Keith & The Group

I took a close look at a local Elite yesterday and yes , what I did to my
Rebel is applicable to the Elite. If you are interested forward a mailing
address direct to my e-mail address and I will send you a hand sketch on what
I did.

In the next couple of days I will post a write up of my reasons for going to
the split flap and some of my observations on the flight testing of my Rebel
comparing the flapperons to the split aileron flap system and finally the
reason for drooping the ailerons. ( Note: in flight I simulate full span
flapperon v/s split aileron flap in stalls or most combinations of.) I hope
everyone will find it interesting .

Steve Sloan




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[Bob Patterson]

Hi Steve !

Thank you VERY much for taking the time to detail your
reasons and testing - I'm sure we'll all benefit from your input !!

If you do your sketches in black ink, I'm sure we can find
somebody to scan them in & post to the site - this would be a
valuable resource, as I suspect there will be a large group of
Elite builders who might want follow !!

I like Chuck's reasons for going to the Rebel fabric flapperons
for his Elite - not only does he save weight, but not having the
spades will allow him to use the Dave Fife wingtips, further improving
his performance. One consideration, though, is that the center (3rd)
support is necessary if the flaps are going down farther than the
Rebel droop (18 degrees or so ...) - metal OR fabric flaps. The
strength comes from the extra support, NOT the metal covering.
It will be interesting to see if the Elite ailerons get too heavy
without the spades. (I suspect not ...) ;-)
.....bobp

---------------------------------orig.---------------------------------
At 11:04 PM 1/22/03 EST, you wrote:

Hi Keith & The Group

I took a close look at a local Elite yesterday and yes , what I did to my
Rebel is applicable to the Elite. If you are interested forward a mailing
address direct to my e-mail address and I will send you a hand sketch on what
I did.

In the next couple of days I will post a write up of my reasons for going to
the split flap and some of my observations on the flight testing of my Rebel
comparing the flapperons to the split aileron flap system and finally the
reason for drooping the ailerons. ( Note: in flight I simulate full span
flapperon v/s split aileron flap in stalls or most combinations of.) I hope
everyone will find it interesting .

Steve Sloan



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[scott.hibbs]

Bob,

I was wondering what the 3rd support is you are talking about. My rebel has a
flaperon support at the tip and root of the wing and a 3rd in the middle
between the two flaperons. Does the Elite have another set mid-span of each
flaperon (5 total)?

Scott Hibbs
Rebel300R

PS, I ran my elevator cables below the floor and although it is very nice, I'd
never waste the time doing it again. Get the plane flying is my new motto and
one you have been touting for some time.


->
-> Hi Steve !
->
-> Thank you VERY much for taking the time to detail your
-> reasons and testing - I'm sure we'll all benefit from your input !!
->
-> If you do your sketches in black ink, I'm sure we can find
-> somebody to scan them in & post to the site - this would be a
-> valuable resource, as I suspect there will be a large group of
-> Elite builders who might want follow !!
->
-> I like Chuck's reasons for going to the Rebel fabric flapperons
-> for his Elite - not only does he save weight, but not having the
-> spades will allow him to use the Dave Fife wingtips, further improving
-> his performance. One consideration, though, is that the center (3rd)
-> support is necessary if the flaps are going down farther than the
-> Rebel droop (18 degrees or so ...) - metal OR fabric flaps. The
-> strength comes from the extra support, NOT the metal covering.
-> It will be interesting to see if the Elite ailerons get too heavy
-> without the spades. (I suspect not ...) ;-)
-> .....bobp
->




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[Bob Patterson]

Hi Scott !

Sorry - I wasn't clear. I was thinking of the supports
for the 'flap' section - like the Rebel, it has one at each end,
but the Elite has an extra one in the center of the inboard panel (flap)
to handle the increased loads caused by the greater angle required
to get anything like the needed drag effect.

You are correct - this gives a total of 4 supports per wing.
Inboard end, center of flap, end of flap/inboard end of aileron (center),
and outboard. ( Can't remember an extra support on the aileron section...
if there is, I'm sure I'll hear about it. ;-^) )

Thanks for the support for "Get it FLYING - it'll never be
finished !". Hope the idea will help you get out enjoying your
Rebel sooner ! :-) :-)

Nobody should feel guilty about not incorporating all of the
improvements they envisioned before they fly their airplane - the flying
is the important part, and changes can (and likely will) be made
afterwards ! Of course, once you've flown your Rebel, you might decide
it's just fine the way it is !! :-)

....bobp

--------------------------------orig.----------------------------------
At 08:47 PM 1/22/03 -0900, you wrote:

Bob,

I was wondering what the 3rd support is you are talking about. My rebel has a
flaperon support at the tip and root of the wing and a 3rd in the middle
between the two flaperons. Does the Elite have another set mid-span of each
flaperon (5 total)?

Scott Hibbs
Rebel300R

PS, I ran my elevator cables below the floor and although it is very nice, I'd
never waste the time doing it again. Get the plane flying is my new motto and
one you have been touting for some time.


->
-> Hi Steve !
->
-> Thank you VERY much for taking the time to detail your
-> reasons and testing - I'm sure we'll all benefit from your input !!
->
-> If you do your sketches in black ink, I'm sure we can find
-> somebody to scan them in & post to the site - this would be a
-> valuable resource, as I suspect there will be a large group of
-> Elite builders who might want follow !!
->
-> I like Chuck's reasons for going to the Rebel fabric flapperons
-> for his Elite - not only does he save weight, but not having the
-> spades will allow him to use the Dave Fife wingtips, further improving
-> his performance. One consideration, though, is that the center (3rd)
-> support is necessary if the flaps are going down farther than the
-> Rebel droop (18 degrees or so ...) - metal OR fabric flaps. The
-> strength comes from the extra support, NOT the metal covering.
-> It will be interesting to see if the Elite ailerons get too heavy
-> without the spades. (I suspect not ...) ;-)
-> .....bobp
->



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[Charles Skorupa]

Both the aileron and the flap have a center support on the Elite. I think
this substantially improves the Rebel design which has non-redundant loading
of the single bracket that holds both the aileron and the flap. In my
paranoid mind I am still considering a double bracket or cable restraint of
some sort for this center bracket so a single crack won't cause loss of both
aileron and flap. Apparently the design margins on the bracket are high
enough that the likelihood of a catastrophic failure of that support is
very, very low. There have been no in service problems here, so this is
probably a non-problem.

Chuck Skorupa


----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Patterson" <apat@istar.ca>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2003 7:38 AM
Subject: RE:Split flap question

Hi Scott !

Sorry - I wasn't clear. I was thinking of the supports
for the 'flap' section - like the Rebel, it has one at each end,
but the Elite has an extra one in the center of the inboard panel (flap)
to handle the increased loads caused by the greater angle required
to get anything like the needed drag effect.

You are correct - this gives a total of 4 supports per wing.
Inboard end, center of flap, end of flap/inboard end of aileron (center),
and outboard. ( Can't remember an extra support on the aileron section...
if there is, I'm sure I'll hear about it. ;-^) )

Thanks for the support for "Get it FLYING - it'll never be
finished !". Hope the idea will help you get out enjoying your
Rebel sooner ! :-) :-)

Nobody should feel guilty about not incorporating all of the
improvements they envisioned before they fly their airplane - the flying
is the important part, and changes can (and likely will) be made
afterwards ! Of course, once you've flown your Rebel, you might decide
it's just fine the way it is !! :-)

....bobp

--------------------------------orig.----------------------------------
At 08:47 PM 1/22/03 -0900, you wrote:

Bob,

I was wondering what the 3rd support is you are talking about. My rebel

has a

flaperon support at the tip and root of the wing and a 3rd in the middle
between the two flaperons. Does the Elite have another set mid-span of

each

flaperon (5 total)?

Scott Hibbs
Rebel300R

PS, I ran my elevator cables below the floor and although it is very

nice, I'd

never waste the time doing it again. Get the plane flying is my new

motto and

one you have been touting for some time.


->
-> Hi Steve !
->
-> Thank you VERY much for taking the time to detail your
-> reasons and testing - I'm sure we'll all benefit from your input !!
->
-> If you do your sketches in black ink, I'm sure we can find
-> somebody to scan them in & post to the site - this would be a
-> valuable resource, as I suspect there will be a large group of
-> Elite builders who might want follow !!
->
-> I like Chuck's reasons for going to the Rebel fabric

flapperons

-> for his Elite - not only does he save weight, but not having the
-> spades will allow him to use the Dave Fife wingtips, further improving
-> his performance. One consideration, though, is that the center (3rd)
-> support is necessary if the flaps are going down farther than the
-> Rebel droop (18 degrees or so ...) - metal OR fabric flaps. The
-> strength comes from the extra support, NOT the metal covering.
-> It will be interesting to see if the Elite ailerons get too heavy
-> without the spades. (I suspect not ...) ;-)
-> .....bobp
->

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[SWSLOANLK]

To the group.

It's been a lively discussion on the old split flap vs flapperon question & I
am in the minority! Before I get into my SPEEL I want to make something
clear. The Murphy Rebel as designed by Daryle Murphy / Murphy Aircraft is one
of the best all-around general perpose airplanes that I have had the pleasure
to own and fly over the past 40 years of flying. It does what the sales
brochure claims, it is easy to build & fly and has great short field
performance.

With that said there are a couple of things that I personaly do not like with
the Rebel, the flapperons, the overhead flap handle and the push pull cable.
I like a flap handle on the floor, it's what I am use to.The use of the push
pull cable for controling the mixer arm causes some slop/spring in the
activation of the flapperon which I personaly do not care for. The third item
is the flapperon. Back in the 1970's I did a considerable amount of work
building and flying large radio controled gliders using drooped leading edge,
flaps and flapperons. I found a lot of test data from various NACA reports
done in the 1950's on flapperons that confirmed what I was experiencing in
flying the gliders.

During the construction of my Rebel I was able to look at a number of
completed Rebels and fly one, paying particular attention to the flapperons.
I found the way the control system was set up, it would be fairly easy to
reconfigure the flapperons to the conventional flap aileron set up with the
flap control on the floor which I did. Note: The ailerons controls are the
standard Murphy control system set up except the mixer arm is pinned ( bolted
) in the nutural position.

During the first 50 hours of flight with my Rebel I had straight ailerons
rigged for maximum travel and the flaps rigged for 12,25 and 40 degrees from
the zero degree up position. There was no reflex position in either the
aileron's or flaps at that time. Flight test showed that the roll rate was
equal, if not better, to the flapperon equiped Rebels that I have flown with
very light stick pressures similar to the Vans RV aircraft. I found the
flap's set at 12 or 25 degrees would lower the stall speed with a minimum of
drag. The 40 degree setting did not lower the stall speed any further, only
generated drag. The airplane side slips nicely with 12 & 25 degrees of flap.
I would not recommend 40 degree side slips. Because the airplane is so
predictable I found that I just don't use the 40 degree flap setting on
landing. At 50 mph you can make double standard rate turns with no prestall
buffet. . At 40 mph you can make standard rate turns with a occasional
prestall buffet. The airplane stalls at 37 mph.

One of the last things I did in the aerodynamic clean up of my Rebel was to
add six degrees reflex to both the ailerons and the flaps. This was done by
modifing the flap handle and adding a handle to the aileron mixer arm.

In May of 2002 I finished & installed my 1800 amphib floats. Early flight
test showed that the plane was a delight to fly, like it did not have floats
on it. Stalls were the same as on wheels except for the break occuring at 40
mph instead of 37 mph.Water operations are equal to or better than any float
plane that I have flown except for having to hold a very close pitch angle
during the water take off run. I did find one major flight problem with the
float installation and this was during take off on land. On land I need to
accelerate to approx 60 mph before the nose will lift off the ground. When
the nose does lift the plane will jump about 10 feet into the air before you
can correct the pitch up. "Not a good thing on the first flight with floats"
After a few flights you get use of it and it is beneficial in heavy cross
winds.This problem was caused by the narrowing of the floats and lowering the
airframe to the floats from the standard Murphy set up. After much research
in various aerodynamics books and review with my aeronautical engineer
friend, I elected to first droop the aileron's as this was the easiest thing
to do prior to possibly changing the incidence angle.

With 12 degrees of aileron droop and the flaps set at 25 degrees I was
absolutely amazed what this small change made. The airplane will now rotate
at approx 45 mph with the same feel as any tricycle gear airplane. The
control is a little heaver with the droop and the roll rate is less. After
doing a complete stall series I found something interesting. With the
ailerons set at 0 degrees and the flaps set at 25 degrees the airplane now
stalls at about 40 mph with a light buffet starting at 42 mph. With the
ailerons set at 12 degrees of droop and the flaps set at 12 degrees ( this
closely represents a flapperon equiped Rebel with max droop with airloads ).
The airplane will stall at 40 to 41 mph with very little prestall buffet.

As you can tell I am a very happy split flap Rebel owner.

I will forward to either Bob or Mike the rough sketches of the flap cross
shaft for posting after I mail copies to the people who have requested them.

Happy Flying
Steve Sloan




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